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Potential contest participants, post here.

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User avatar Semfry
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015, 03:22

If you need to do that but don't want new code doesn't Firetrucks have a feature like that? Also could using the Vortex Rikers gametype for the HUB with a healing area at the playerstart work as a ghetto solution? I'm not sure if it works mid-campaign.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 11 Jan 2015, 18:07

I agree the best solution would be to implement at least that one custom trigger to wipe clean a player's inventory upon returning to the hub (especially since it is trivial, apparently! not for me though :P ).

@Mman: I wonder if the gametype at the end of Unreal wouldn't do just that.
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Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 11 Jan 2015, 23:48

Mister_Prophet wrote:Making levels playable on all platforms (Unreal 226/227, UT 436 w/Oldskool)


I cannot, for the life of me, understand why it is still necessary to "support all platforms" rather than finally embrace and support the vivid fireworks display of new possibilities and strengths that is 227, after all this time.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 00:10

Support UT at least. If you're going with no custom content, then that also means cutting out other extra content as well.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 00:35

ividyon wrote:
I cannot, for the life of me, understand why it is still necessary to "support all platforms" rather than finally embrace and support the vivid fireworks display of new possibilities and strengths that is 227, after all this time.


1. Supporting one platform alienates those who don't use it. That is no longer something I'm interested in doing, if I were to be involved. Can't speak for everyone else.

2. In terms of keeping things simple, there is no good reason to support only one platform for what is being discussed, unless someone proposes a concept around just that. It seems other people feel this way too. I proposed an idea, on the understanding that making levels quickly in a group effort project that is available to everyone was a good idea. As I said, this was just my take on what a good approach would be. I'm only interested in seeing new Unreal levels.

3. Nobody is stopping you or anyone else from proposing a counter idea. Let the think tank for a 227-only project please stand up. And let the mappers show up too.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 01:18

In this case I fully agree with Mister_Prophet. It seems the forming idea here is a project with as few barriers to entry as possible, and in that regard supporting all the main versions is preferable.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 01:23

These arguments come up a lot. I don't think anything I can say could ever change anyone's mind about 227, so it doesn't really matter if I stay silent or not.

I highly doubt there are many, if any, people who cannot use 227. Look, if you or others cannot afford a modern enough machine to run 227, or if there is another reason why you are unable, I feel for you. For most who avoid 227, especially those who are outspoken about its "evils", it is their choice to do so. While I am all for inclusivity over things people have no control over, somehow I highly doubt the purity of 225 or 436 (w/ Oldskool) fits into people's identity, sex, gender, orientation, marital status, health, economic status, or other attributes that are either considered to be immutable or else difficult to change. Also, dealing with issues introduced by Oldskool really sucks.

People are fickle about what they consider "custom" content. Static meshes, projectors, particle systems, environment mapping, time dilation, dynamic zones, distance fog, finer control over lightmaps, etc all do not require any custom classes, code, textures, audio, models, or such to take advantage of, but many still consider this stuff "unfair" in some way. Arguments could also be made about working around the KISS principle. I'd agree to that right up until you start trying to find ways around not being able to do something you could have easily, and more quickly, done with extra content.

So there is my two cents on the matter, not that anyone really cared one way or the other. I've released like, one or two levels in the past nine years, and before then I was just some kid who churned out a fair amount of inconsistent crap; people have reason to put less stock in my words than those of either one of the legendary mappers of yesteryear, or the very vocal anti-227 community.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 02:40

Mman wrote:In this case I fully agree with Mister_Prophet. It seems the forming idea here is a project with as few barriers to entry as possible, and in that regard supporting all the main versions is preferable.


^This.
Apart from that, I thought I might add that I never came across an anti-227 community. I haven't read that much about the topic, but what I came across was only positive. It may be that I just go after threads with positive stuff in them, and of course I'm far from being the most knowledgeable person around here, but hey Unreal is an opportunity for fun during my free time... and only for fun.
Like Mister_Prophet said, I'm only interested in seeing new Unreal levels.
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 02:53

ebd wrote:People are fickle about what they consider "custom" content. Static meshes, projectors, particle systems, environment mapping, time dilation, dynamic zones, distance fog, finer control over lightmaps, etc all do not require any custom classes, code, textures, audio, models, or such to take advantage of, but many still consider this stuff "unfair" in some way. Arguments could also be made about working around the KISS principle. I'd agree to that right up until you start trying to find ways around not being able to do something you could have easily, and more quickly, done with extra content.


Since this would presumably be a timed contest I do think there's something to saying the 227 features are potentially unfair, as people who have already learned and know of the new features inherently have a time advantage over those who haven't, especially as the documentation for those features isn't exactly thorough as far I can tell (maybe it's a bit better now). I mean in practice it's not such a problem as the people who have learned the new features are generally experienced mappers who would make superior content (at least visually) even without them, but it would nonetheless put certain entrants at a disadvantage vs others.
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 04:54

I just want to be clear, I'm not advocating against using 227. Rather, I just think the less we think of map design in terms of patch features and the more we focus on the basics of Unreal that everyone has and the basics that everyone knows then the quicker collaborators can make content that everyone can play. Not every player has UT and not every player has Unreal, but anyone running Unreal SP maps on some platform can play vanilla levels. If this fact has changed then I invite you to correct me. Consider this also, any mapper can make a vanilla level but not everyone can figure out new patch features or platform conversions in a short span of time. We have to ask ourselves; how much more work is it worth to produce fewer finished levels for fewer players?
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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 12:36

Just to add to the already interesting conversation here, I'd thought I'd add my opinion to what would be best for people who are true hardcore fans of the mother game Unreal:

The fact of the matter is that Unreal runs on an aged engine with aged AI and aged graphics. The push for a community made pack in 2015 for a game that dates back to 1997 is a bit too much to ask from a small but dedicated community fan page. The talent required that even comes close to matching the level of innovation that came from stock Unreal is nothing far from a longshot. As an example, just see the latest project which utilizes some features from the 227 patch authored by a single fan of Unreal. The results might be satisfying to that person and refresh some minds to see a project released in 2015, but the reality is that by just looking at screenshots, I can personally tell its an experience that barely touches the Unreal quality bar.

My suggestion would be to make a push into Unreal Engine 4, particularly project "Unreal Tournament" where many of the assets from the stock Unreal game are already present. The reality is, creating enemies to represent counterparts of the original Unreal enemies would be much easier to do than creating a truely innovative mappack in all areas in Unreal Engine 1. Not only that, there exists a community pool on Epics forums who DO care about the mother game and although not diehard fans of the original title would like to play and possibly contribute to an Unreal inspired experience on the new engine.

If you are leaning away from the idea of buying a $20/month subscription from Epic but support this idea, I would highly suggest that you do as I did and buy the engine for one month only and cancel the subscription the day of buying. Many indie developers have done this already I've noticed for their monthly contests.

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/sho ... -DM-Temple
https://forums.unrealtournament.com/sho ... track-(WIP)
https://forums.unrealtournament.com/sho ... -CrashSite

Just some food for thought.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 15:02

I think it's much less realistic to expect someone to make an Unreal-esque map for UT4 than it is for someone to make a map for the old engine. People would need to have a HUD, weapons, a movement system, static meshes, and especially coded enemies and creatures, all of which would have to be reminiscent of Unreal's. The amount of work it would take to get all of those things into UT4 would be absolutely monumental, and that's assuming there wouldn't be any legal issues.

It took me quite a long time to rig and animate the slith, mercenary, nali, and predator to have the same quality of animations from Unreal, and that was without making new models. A project to bring all of Unreal's core features to UT4 would take years and a very dedicated team. If only one part of that team (ie. all of the coders), the project would come to a standstill, no matter how many mappers were contributing. I can't imagine it would get anywhere when projects to bring Na Pali to later games like UT2004 and UT3 haven't.

With Unreal, people can at least focus on level design. Packs like Weedrow, the Triamid Ruins, and The Fifth Vortex show that it's still possible for mappers to bring fresh ideas to the table.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 15:13

Thanks for your thoughts, SkaarjSniper :)

What you're saying sounds reasonable... for anyone who truly desires to make use of today's tech for game development.
As for myself, mapping is purely a hobby amongst others. I don't wish to become a professional developer, and I'm not passionate enough to spend at least several hundred hours per year on mapping (although I do believe I spent well over a hundred hours doing this last year).
Unreal/UT is great fun. I wouldn't call myself a die-hard fan of those games, as in truth I don't get to play them (or any game) that much. But they are awesome games, and they are familiar, and I do enjoy mapping for these games because 1) there's something sexy about the old engine (PS: graphically it permeates not only my memories from Unreal/UT but also, in a slightly different but obviously similar way, my memories of Deus Ex) 2) the engine is at a very interesting crossroads, being both sufficiently advanced to fulfill my occasional gaming (and obviously mapping) fantasies AND sufficiently "simple" that I can hope to do something nice with it without spending thousands of hours on a single map.
Going back to this ongoing discussion, I can assure you I wasn't deluding myself with ideas of trying to equal the impact of the mothergame with a community-led pack that, from what is being said here, aims to be more of a fun, friendly event of sorts to celebrate aspects of the game that we all continue to enjoy after all these years. When I initially bumped this thread, it was with the desire to see a new "casual entertainment" mapping event for this community. Nothing groundbreaking. And after 4-6 weeks, we'd have a pack released for all to enjoy and if, thereafter, there's a desire to improve/expand the product further, so much the better. Besides that, we are, of course, all aware of the big, serious projects that continue to make progress behind the scenes and which I, for one, will be more than happy to enjoy when the good folks behind these mastodonts finally release their baby.
But heck, the idea emerging here is for lighthearted stuff in comparison. Which is not to say that it cannot result in some awesome maps (if history is any indication). I know doing something like this would stimulate me and be lots of fun, and I believe there are others who feel the same way.
What is also cool about this is the get-together feel, without the pressure which could possibly arise from very ambitious projects, and it allows inexperienced mappers like myself to make something alongside more experienced mappers :) which I think is super cool!

PS: and what AlCapowned said, too.
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015, 15:47

Thanks for the replies. I'd like to point out a student project that was done in just 1 semester by 7 students:

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthr ... roject-NAD

If all that can be done by 7 students in one semester, I have a real hard time believing it cannot be done with a small select group of dedicated Unreal fans who are willing to expand their toolsets and knowledge in different areas of game design.

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Subject: Re: Potential contest participants, post here.

Post Posted: 13 Jan 2015, 00:46

I see your point, yet again, this thread was about doing something more laid back. I guess that group of dedicated Unreal fans willing to expand their toolsets etc, that you mention, may perfectly well exist, but then of course, chances are they would already be on the new UT forums.
Your suggestion to make a push into Unreal Engine 4 may gain traction with others, of course. Maybe make a specific thread for it?

Those students are extremely talented, by the way! and naturally, they are highly motivated to turn professional.
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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