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01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Each week a single map is discussed here in detail.

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Subject: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 01 Jan 2018, 18:19

Holiday filler week for the beginning of 2018.

Instead of discussing about a single specific map, anyone here can instead bring up a map or pack or ANYTHING ELSE about Unreal that you feel like talking about. You didn't feel like creating a thread in the gameplay section for talking about x and y? This thread is for you.

Regular MOTW resumes next week (January has four Mondays, which fits the usual four-entries-per-month MOTW schedule).
EPISODE 2 RELEASED - Up to seven maps of the redesigned campaign.
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 09:19

Cool thread! :)

One thing I had wanted to share with the community for a long time is my frustration at the absence of female Nali in the game (Unreal/UT). We should have a 3D (animated) female Nali model.

EDIT:
Seems AlCapowned was working on skeletal animations for a Nali (https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3858&sid=791847a346f20d2154cf73e7f9c7f766&start=15), if that was brought to completion, then as AlCapowned said "if someone is able to make a new model and skins, that might make things easier".

I realise the reason why no such thing exists yet is because of the huge amount of work it would require to match Unreal standards.
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 11:31

I did eventually finish those animations (see the NaliSlave model in Resurgence's SkCampMeshes), so if someone were to make a new model made with the same proportions and positioning as the nali statue, rigging it would be pretty easy. Or maybe someone could use Z-Enzyme's awesome technique for editing vertex meshes to just change the regular nali model.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 15:09

If you want to take the novels into account, Vandora is just a depiction, while female Nali are rare and barely any different from the male ones.
EPISODE 2 RELEASED - Up to seven maps of the redesigned campaign.
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 16:06

UBerserker wrote:If you want to take the novels into account, Vandora is just a depiction, while female Nali are rare and barely any different from the male ones.


Fair enough. (I don't think the novels are very good - and that info seems to be a way of explaining why we don't see female Nali in-game - that is frankly sticking a bit too literally to what the game did, a game that had to make-do with technical, time and budget constraints)

Good to know, AlCapowned! You made a fantastic job and I have wanted to use your various Mercenary classes for a while now. Here's hoping someone with talent and time will look into changing the regular Nali model or making a new one. (I will look up Z-Enzyme's technique, don't know about it)
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 16:44

It's realistic though, it would be scientifically impossible for female Nali to look like humans like Vandora. At best they may look like Nali with a more thin and relaxed appearance, with a white/cyan skin possibly.
EPISODE 2 RELEASED - Up to seven maps of the redesigned campaign.
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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 09:14

Battle For Na Pali was going to explore Nali life and culture in detail, and while it never got much passed concept the intention was to create Nali women and children. I was never keen on Mike's visual preferences for the women and children (boys, anyway) but I know I'd love to use female models if someone made them.

I don't think the Vandora picture should be taken as more than what it is; a depiction of a deity or demigod figure and maybe not a visually accurate portrait of Nali appearance. There is also an argument to be made that the Nali from the final game differ from the beta skins that more closely resemble Terran features, as is shown in the Vandora image.
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 11:01

UBerserker wrote:It's realistic though, it would be scientifically impossible for female Nali to look like humans like Vandora. At best they may look like Nali with a more thin and relaxed appearance, with a white/cyan skin possibly.


Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't think of using the Vandora depiction as a basis for a female Nali model (only if someone made a model for Vandora would that image be relevant IMO). The Vandora image is awesome but was always a bit "unreal" yeah (which is fine for a game like this!). I always imagined female Nali to be basically like their male counterparts (with those yellow eyes) with the only throwback to Vandora being the quadboobs (and it doesn't have to be made to look "sexy" either, just has to look natural the way it is natural to go round naked in some human societies). By the way, white/cyan skin could also work as a throwback to Vandora but it got me thinking: realistically, it could be conceivable that there are various Nali ethnic groups just as with humans and so we could have more skin variations along those lines too.

Mister_Prophet is also right in pointing out discrepancies in Nali design which boil down to the chaotic manner with which the Unreal universe was imagined.

I would also love to use female Nali models if available.

EDIT: maybe using a free low poly female base mesh could help, e.g.: https://www.cgtrader.com/free-3d-models/character/woman/low-poly-female-base-mesh#tab-description
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 16:16

Speaking about
https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1 ... 248afdfc2a
Here's a literal stone woman who punches and kicks you. Uses the original Unreal female model. Really cool.
EPISODE 2 RELEASED - Up to seven maps of the redesigned campaign.
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 20:03

UBerserker wrote:Speaking about
https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1 ... 248afdfc2a
Here's a literal stone woman who punches and kicks you. Uses the original Unreal female model. Really cool.


Ah yes, that is really cool! Thanks for sharing :D
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 12:44

Besides that, another thing I wanted to talk about is fundamental gameplay differences between Unreal and UT: even while one can easily make a map for both games, there remain subtle differences e.g. the slight sliding effect on steep slopes in the first title, as well as head "bobbing". I am not sure how I feel about that: ideally I would like to be able to control such parameters, as they affect the experience in subtle ways (generally, I would argue the player has finer control in UT while Unreal may be more "realistic" in a sense). Can one control these parameters in the gametype? And I wonder how others feel about this in general?

Also, new renderers showing seams in old skyboxes annoy the hell of me! (Tomb of Sesmar used to have a flawless skybox with the old Direct3D renderer!)

More thoughts: what is really problematic with Predator AI? they worked well enough in my memories (RTNP but also The Odyssey by Sarevok where Predators really managed to scare me!)

Could the Gasbag AI fix (regarding the floating away issue) in EXU2 be carried over to the regular Gasbag and released as stand alone?

Finally: is one allowed to consider (with crediting of course) using Nali Chronicles music? Since it's probably impossible to contact the original developers (and I would extend this question to the gametype too, given that in other cases like ONP it is fair game)

P.S.: what is the exact date of the first release of Unreal?
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.

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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 17:00

Sat42 wrote:Besides that, another thing I wanted to talk about is fundamental gameplay differences between Unreal and UT: even while one can easily make a map for both games, there remain subtle differences e.g. the slight sliding effect on steep slopes in the first title, as well as head "bobbing". I am not sure how I feel about that: ideally I would like to be able to control such parameters, as they affect the experience in subtle ways (generally, I would argue the player has finer control in UT while Unreal may be more "realistic" in a sense). Can one control these parameters in the gametype? And I wonder how others feel about this in general?


The sliding is one of the few reasons why I don't enjoy playing the original Unreal. It feels like running on ice, your movements are not precise and for me moving to point x with the exact distance I'm thinking about before said movement is a pretty big deal. I believe this is true in many old FPS games, which is why I don't really like playing them now, the movements suck.

Sat42 wrote:More thoughts: what is really problematic with Predator AI? they worked well enough in my memories (RTNP but also The Odyssey by Sarevok where Predators really managed to scare me!)


From what I remember Predators fill the log with garbage/warning lines, and every time they popped up I had some slowdown issues (in RTNP maps). Not good.

Sat42 wrote:Could the Gasbag AI fix (regarding the floating away issue) in EXU2 be carried over to the regular Gasbag and released as stand alone?


EXU files should be default-installed for everyone so people can be recommended/forced to use its advanced and better-coded actors. Unreal 1 has 227 for mostly visual stuff, why UT can't instead rely on its stronger gameplay value?

Sat42 wrote:Finally: is one allowed to consider (with crediting of course) using Nali Chronicles music? Since it's probably impossible to contact the original developers (and I would extend this question to the gametype too, given that in other cases like ONP it is fair game)


If you can't reach them, credit them in your readme. I'm 100% sure they won't show up either way, they made the songs years ago, they may even forgot about them or may not know what's going on in the U1/UT scene.
For the gametype you simply just credit the NaliChronicles team. You're not ripping anyone off by using it.

Sat42 wrote:P.S.: what is the exact date of the first release of Unreal?


May 22nd 1998. It's gonna be 20 years old this year.
Tried to contact @utgame and Flak about the Unreal redux trailer but so far no response. Maybe they really don't want anything to do with 227.
EPISODE 2 RELEASED - Up to seven maps of the redesigned campaign.
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 20:47

Sat42 wrote:Finally: is one allowed to consider (with crediting of course) using Nali Chronicles music? Since it's probably impossible to contact the original developers (and I would extend this question to the gametype too, given that in other cases like ONP it is fair game)


Funny you should mention this, I actually had "Ole" (the guy who wrote the NC music) comment on one of my uploads of his music on youtube:

► Show Spoiler


So if you just drop him a message somewhere I'm sure he'd be happy and humbled for you to use his music in your own stuff!

.......
SZ
.......
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Subject: Re: 01/01/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread

Post Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 12:49

UBerserker wrote:Great step by step response

Thanks for the reply UB :D
Would be really good if you got a response for the 20th anniversary thing - let's keep our hopes up!
Predator log BS is noted.
The Gasbag fix is definitely going to be used beyond EXU2 yeah! And all the rest should also see greater exposure. Wonder if Waffnuffly will drop his thoughts about that.

SteadZ wrote:
Sat42 wrote:Finally: is one allowed to consider (with crediting of course) using Nali Chronicles music? Since it's probably impossible to contact the original developers (and I would extend this question to the gametype too, given that in other cases like ONP it is fair game)


Funny you should mention this, I actually had "Ole" (the guy who wrote the NC music) comment on one of my uploads of his music on youtube:

► Show Spoiler


So if you just drop him a message somewhere I'm sure he'd be happy and humbled for you to use his music in your own stuff!

.......
SZ
.......


:o Awesome news SteadZ! Thanks for letting me know, I will try to contact Ollie soon :tup:
Nali: Magic or Telekinesis
Waffnuffly wrote:It's tarydium-doped smoothies. Drunk by the player, I mean. The player is tripping balls. The whole game actually takes place in a large city and the player thinks he's on an alien world.


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