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05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Each week a single map is discussed here in detail.

Moderators: Semfry, Delacroix, UBerserker, Jigoku, Doublez-Down

UBerserker
Nali Priest Nali Priest
Posts: 7854
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 21:00

Subject: 05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018, 20:09

Same as this viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4294

Lack of foreplanning has led to a MOTW-less first week of March, sorry. The next three weeks will be about large-scale classic Unreal maps.

UBerserker
Nali Priest Nali Priest
Posts: 7854
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 21:00

Subject: Re: 05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Post Posted: 07 Mar 2018, 23:43

During map development I've been re-reading many of the reviews, mainly Scrag's and Proph's as well as mine. I really hated reading my reviews, jesus, they come off as dumb as shit and don't take in account how annoying is doing certain things in the editor and how much delicate the engine overall is (Zero Black is the one I'm most fine with). Like giving UMS Solaris a score that low - the fuck? I'm imagining it being a pain in the royal ass to make, even more impressive how well it runs! You have open-ended space travelling there, so many possibilities to proceed through the level.
Don't let me started also on the technical issues. The engine has its limits that you will inevitably run into if you begin to do stuff alien to what the engine was originally designed to do. The infamous invisible brushes bug is a thing of horrors that can't be really sent to fuck off, just suck it up and accept them if there's no way to fix. They've been the bane of my mapping existence but fortunately it only happens in very specific situations when you look at a certain angle; as long as it's not constantly in front of your eyes regardless of viewing direction, you did a good job. Same with HOMs, which are less common nowadays (probably better renderer and no use of semisolids are the main causes).
VVV definitely deserved something higher, I eat back all those comments about the map looking empty at times because that's the way how it would look in real life. It's not like building blocks have 1000 trims all over the place and other crazy cool shit on the ground and ceilings. This goes back to how certain top-tier ancient themed locations (the 7B map with the two huge bridges for example) have a rather simplistic architecture yet they look insane. Scale in maps play a big factor; good-looking maps with incredible scale always end up the most impressive.

Also I'm wondering, have there been other Drevlin/eVOLVE reviews? The original DV's one mentions they did more but that's the only one I can find in the internet.

Back to Scrag/Proph reviews, basically I had fun reading them all constantly and figuring out issues and shenanigans that reviewed maps had and trying to not commit the same mistakes. Proph's review of Gothic Resurrection is the most hilarious shit ever while at the same time speaking the truth on many Unreal clichès present in almost every map.
90% will likely and most probably remain the highest number one will ever see in the review list page.
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User avatar editor Dave
Skaarj Berserker Skaarj Berserker
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Subject: Re: 05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018, 14:41

It is funny how the disappearing of brushes in certain angles angers you that much. I have been accepting them almost from the very beginning of their appearence :D Well, unless half the screen cuts right in front of you, that is a different matter, but other than that, it doesnt bother me at all.

I agree with you on scale being a huge wow factor, however you need to convey the scale in a reasonable matter. The area must be interesting enough with some visual highlight or the alignment needs to be right (bad example ofr both: that later outdoor map of Deja Vú, even though its build is solid). Scale is also one of the things I struggle most with, because often enough, my areas are either very tiny so you can barely jump or massively huge so with my sense of detail the map forces low framerates.

Imo, mappers deserve a medal when they can make a low poly map seem high poly. And I think, most of this comes from the textures. I particularily think of ONP whose white-temple texture pack is already so detailed that you dont need many trims and decoration, because it is all there. Add a sense of style and you will be easily impressed. On the other hand, if I were to retexture those brushes with AincentXXL (the pack I use for Unforchers), they would totally pale in comparison. Like everything, this can be good and bad: Bad, because you need more polygons to make a map visually acceptable, good, because you are freer in the use of the textures. The more basic they are, the more you can make use of your creativity in order to be less repetitive.

Regarding reviews: This site seems to be one of the few (and probably the only one I know) that uses the rating to its fullest extent. A 40-50% score is by no means bad, it means average, which guarantess you most likely will enjoy your trip. Whereas on other sites it would mean that it was trash. The only problem is for newcomers that they need to be aware of this. ^^ Well, it also comes down to what you want from a map. For example, if you dont care for a story, 20% of the score are already wasted.
The Unforchers will come again soon...

UBerserker
Nali Priest Nali Priest
Posts: 7854
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 21:00

Subject: Re: 05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018, 15:31

editor Dave wrote:It is funny how the disappearing of brushes in certain angles angers you that much. I have been accepting them almost from the very beginning of their appearence :D


I legit never ever noticed this until I started mapping for late G59 patches. There was a while when people talked about the mesh disappearing bug but now here we are with disappearing brushes. I've noticed more of this after I upgraded my GPU, which makes me think this might be caused by rendering issues on modern machines but I'm sure it's not true.
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UBerserker
Nali Priest Nali Priest
Posts: 7854
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 21:00

Subject: Re: 05/03/2018 - General Open Discussion Thread Pt2

Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018, 00:32

UBerserker wrote:
editor Dave wrote:It is funny how the disappearing of brushes in certain angles angers you that much. I have been accepting them almost from the very beginning of their appearence :D


I legit never ever noticed this until I started mapping for late G59 patches. There was a while when people talked about the mesh disappearing bug but now here we are with disappearing brushes. I've noticed more of this after I upgraded my GPU, which makes me think this might be caused by rendering issues on modern machines but I'm sure it's not true.


Actually to clarify, the disappearing brush bug can be dangerous if you don't want a certain area to be rendered in the place you currently are. Rendering crashes may occur.
Funnily, Serious Sam games (BFE and TFE/TSE HD) also have this disappearing geometry issue, which I also only noticed it with the new GPU.
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