Hardest SP packs Tier list

[Hellscrag]

This is where I have to really disagree. Xidia and 7B are not remotely the same, as 7B actually had a great deal more difficulty balance than its predecessor. I know it's very rough on the Unreal difficulty, but then again 7B is a special case when it comes to the fourth difficulty. The differences between 7B on Hard as compared to Unreal are night and day, and it was made that way on purpose for a select group of players. Xidia, on the other hand, had bugs and other obscene balance issues that never really got the proper kind of optimization. Even on Medium it could be unforgiving for most players.

Have to agree with all of this... following the guidance in the readme, I played 7B on Hard, and found it all to be pretty manageable with only one or two moments of exceptional difficulty.

Xidia is generally much more punishing.

[UB_]

Unforcher's opening was easy. When you enter the cellars, and if you take the Warlord way, now that's rough. Honestly none of the listed packs aside Zephon and Unreality comes to that difficulty. Those jumping puzzles and the following map count too. I really don't have anything more to say.

Now Xidia, as I said, its difficulty seems to be overexaggerated. Obviously there was the Outpost bug before but it's fixed; the only one which remains is the absence of JumpBoots before the Queen battle, and if you fall in the Pupae pit, you can't do anything.
Then now, what ambushes are hard? The few bot battles are nothing to fear about, and Cray isn't aggressive. Shoot him continuosly with Pulse Gun's secondary and you're set. The White Scorpion is as hard as the Spinner Queen. Actually, the bosses are easy, the Red Nemesis being the worst example.
There are unfair ambushes? I don't remember. There's a lot of ammo, and apparently many health packs / Nali Healing Fruits too (not much health as Sky Town Reduxx though).
Hourences' maps were somewhat hard, okay: team of Skaarj Praetorians and Skaarj Harvesters.
I can go on and on but nothing of Xidia comes close to the frustration I felt when fighting groups of terran bots and Drago.

[Hellscrag]

The Red Nemesis bosses are never easy.

[UB_]

It's a longer Skaarj Berserker fight, and they're larger so you won't have problems at hitting them with something like the Flak Cannon or Mining Tool. Its AI is even more exploitable. But at this point we're going into Sky Town Reduxx more than Xidia talking.

[Mister_Prophet]

I would not say Xidia is unfair. As much as I will admit imbalance issues, that's a much different thing than saying a game is "unfair." Unfair means the same as broken to me. I'm talking about things we did in the game that are, in a very noticable way, one-sided. For starters, there is no proper setup for difficulty progression. You get a grueling first level (discounting the introductory maps), which is followed by a much easier followup, then back to hard, and ending with a generally far easier climax. All my released SPs have, to date, began with the same approach; You begin with a heavy outfit of weapons and items and get much of the game's loot early on, and most battles are scripted assaults of the one on one or group ambush style with an emphasis on hard hitting combat. It's just that, since Xidia, I've had more chances to improve upon this. Xidia is simply the rawest form of my brand of gameplay. The weapons were more basic, since they were closer to what Unreal offered, or exactly that, and the ways a player could get out of any given situation was more limited in variety then the stuff I did after. Even Xidia: The Escape has more variety in how to solve combat related situations than its predecessor.

I don't necessarily think Xidia is harder than 7B for these reasons, or vice versa. But clearly, I think Xidia typically comes out as the more jarring of the two due to problems with the level of diversity offered (subsequent playthroughs of Xidia get easier once you figure out the "sweet spot" of each battle as it was designed to go down, with what weapon, and with how much ammo needed for the task). I'll give you examples. There's only one real effective way to fight each Red Nemesis in every instance you encounter them, whereas other methods might work they are based more on luck. There's only one proven way to handle the Flak Trooper battle at the end of Outpost Phoenix, or a multitude of other combat situations. It's not always like this, but you know what I mean hopefully. It's just not as forgiving when it comes to "winging it," as you kind of need a bit of foresight for a lot of the situations...and sometimes the only way to get that is to foul up once or twice. A good level designer will avoid this at all costs.

[editor Dave]

When I looked at your Tier list I wondered why there wasn't my map. Today I realized you edited the first post and I think that was the right decision
But I thought you only wanted to list the reviewed maps (that was the reason why I didn't care about the maps not being in your list).

Unforcher, according to EDave, it's designed to be hard. I think you have played it since you co-worked for the translator messages, but I'm serious: it's hardcore.
Unforcher's opening was easy. When you enter the cellars, and if you take the Warlord way, now that's rough. Honestly none of the listed packs aside Zephon and Unreality comes to that difficulty. Those jumping puzzles and the following map count too. I really don't have anything more to say.

Actually, it was not my intention to make the maps hard but in the end I couldn't think of an easier way. It just wouldn't fit.
But I wondered about the comparisons with Unreality and Zephon. I mean, even the best player has to cheat in these packs to finish them and that's not the case in my Unforchers-maps...

Unforcher had a rough opening, but again...I don't see it as a SP that's exactly hard as it is difficult unless you play it "the right way." When I was beta testing Unforcher the ending wasn't working right at the time, so I remember being stuck in the courtyard with a bunch of infinitely respawning Skaarj.

I don't know if you played the latest version, but now the ending works perfectly, as well as all other things, like the modified Redeemer.
You have to fight approximately 1:45 minutes (until the song ends), then you will be teleported in unforchers1 again, or if you had have Unforchers3 you would have been teleported to this map.

[Mister_Prophet]

I remember you explaining that to me when I tested I haven't had the pleasure of completing the released version yet.

[UB_]

I know were are you getting, Proph.
I didn't play Xidia really early, I had a lot of experience before it (I guess I did already play everything except NC and 7B). I did even try Sky Town Reduxx before XG.
At that point I knew how the Unreal enemies behave, the gameplay system, etc. In other words I think it was all about having a preparation, and I felt the gameplay of Xidia being generally balanced.

The same can be said about 7B: Skaarj and temple sections can be cakewalk'd due to the enhanched weapons. The problems are the bots. Just the bots. You know how much I hate them. It's a big jump in difficulty, and they fight differently from any other enemies. They can have hitscan weapons, they are insanely fast, their assaults can make you clueless. They aren't Skaarj Troopers. Players won't know the best way to defeat them after many tries, or until they'll start to use the Plasma Rifle's secondary fire (myself, and probably other peope too, didn't know that the beam was so incredibly powerful here, compared to the useless original one).
I reloaded my game much more than in Xidia while fighting these guys (and Unreality was just another long story). I'm never sure if I always win against these guys or not. It's just not possible to say that the terrans are constant losers. Caruthers was the toughest thing in DV2, in my opinion, and he was a hitscan bot.

Simply I do not agree with everyone's take on Xidia difficulty. As I said, it's all my perception.

Actually, it was not my intention to make the maps hard but in the end I couldn't think of an easier way. It just wouldn't fit.
But I wondered about the comparisons with Unreality and Zephon. I mean, even the best player has to cheat in these packs to finish them and that's not the case in my Unforchers-maps...

It wasn't a comparison. Zephon isn't "impossible" in its current form anyway, you just have, sometimes, to duplicate your human senses.

[Mister_Prophet]

You know how much I hate them. It's a big jump in difficulty, and they fight differently from any other enemies. They can have hitscan weapons, they are insanely fast, their assaults can make you clueless. They aren't Skaarj Troopers. Players won't know the best way to defeat them after many tries, or until they'll start to use the Plasma Rifle's secondary fire (myself, and probably other peope too, didn't know that the beam was so incredibly powerful here, compared to the useless original one).
I reloaded my game much more than in Xidia while fighting these guys (and Unreality was just another long story). I'm never sure if I always win against these guys or not. It's just not possible to say that the terrans are constant losers. Caruthers was the toughest thing in DV2, in my opinion, and he was a hitscan bot.

They are certainly unpredictable to a large extent. That was kind of the benefit of including them though (you spend the game making pulp of Unreal's enemies and finish with the next stage of Unreal's AI) By the time you encounter them in 7B, you've had the bulk of the game's inventory since the earliest maps and have enough rations to take them on. First, you only fight them in one on one situations or small couplings, then eventually you get into situations where you fight groups. I admit my own corruptions with years of UT, honing me into a proficient godlike bot hunter, and while we did our best at the time to downplay their botlike tendencies...some of those fights are like walking into a base in an Assault map without your team. On the other hand, they are very easy to kill and there was a high headshot capability with the hitscan weapons you use. Most fights against an individual Pirate can be over as simply as looking at them, in your favor. The Plasma Rifle is very effective, but moreso are the rapid fire weapons like the CAR or the Machine Mags, especially the Rifle. Of course, on Unreal difficulty all bets are off.

EDIT: I will say, I haven't played a released SP yet that has used human enemies (bots) as well as we did, and I don't care if that sounds arrogant because it's not meant to be. You can't just introduce them as you would a normal Unreal pawn, and usually when I see packs that try to use them that is exactly what they do. Notable mentions are the currently unreleased SP from Carthage that I beta tested, and Sana can attest to this being an effective bot-orientated SP also.

[salsaSkaarj]

...(subsequent playthroughs of Xidia get easier once you figure out the "sweet spot" of each battle as it was designed to go down, with what weapon, and with how much ammo needed for the task). ...

Exactly my point earlier.
And as one gets to know the game, strategies are learnt and can be used for the following encounters. One also starts to recognise areas in which a certain type of encounter could prove disastrous, and thus... caution when progressing, keeping a lookout for ways to retreat, places difficult to reach by the assailant, doors which can be opened by the player and not the enemy. That's what gives certain mappacks an edge over others - being able to plan ahead (up to a certain point).

But again, perception is what counts. I can't take on the marines in RTNP but UB can, I found the pirates in 7B (down the elevator in the open) not very difficult (because I was able to exploit the side ledges). The bots just before Drago were harder for me than Drago himself because he's only 1 enemy and using ALT rockets he can be weakened severely before he's near you.

You know how much I hate them (the bots). It's a big jump in difficulty, and they fight differently from any other enemies.

But when used correctly it's fun having a new enemy to fight, and the unpredictability adds some spice.

[UB_]

But when used correctly it's fun having a new enemy to fight, and the unpredictability adds some spice.

Depending on how the enemy is designed and how he behaves.

[salsaSkaarj]

...
EDIT: I will say, I haven't played a released SP yet that has used human enemies (bots) as well as we did, and I don't care if that sounds arrogant because it's not meant to be. You can't just introduce them as you would a normal Unreal pawn, and usually when I see packs that try to use them that is exactly what they do. Notable mentions are the currently unreleased SP from Carthage that I beta tested, and Sana can attest to this being an effective bot-orientated SP also.

Ah, I hadn' noticed your edit.

Well? as much as I don't like botplay, I thought Carthage had done a really decent job in changing the bots. Far from perfect but certainly playable - had those bots been the standard 7B ones, I doubt I could have finished the first level.

[gatecrasher48]

I know i don't have nearly as informed of an opinion as you guys, but I have to agree with UB's point earlier about cutscenes. In my opinion, there really is nothing more irritating than having a cutscene affect your ability in a fight. I remember a couple times in ONP when a cutscene would go on for so long that by the time I regained control of my character, the enemy was already on top of me. I wonder if these were done on purpose, to force you to react quickly. Either way, super unnecessary in my opinion.

Also, everyone keeps referring to that spot in Zenome about the "three skaarj hill" being so difficult; every time I've played that map, they always end up fighting each other and the fight becomes a wash. I've tried making other bots throughout the map do the same, to see if it could make the fights easier, but never any luck. Is there a trick to this?

[Semfry]

Also, everyone keeps referring to that spot in Zenome about the "three skaarj hill" being so difficult; every time I've played that map, they always end up fighting each other and the fight becomes a wash. I've tried making other bots throughout the map do the same, to see if it could make the fights easier, but never any luck. Is there a trick to this?

Maybe this is a difficulty thing, because, on hard at least, all three are Skaarj lords which is a class that doesn't in-fight.

[salsaSkaarj]

Also, everyone keeps referring to that spot in Zenome about the "three skaarj hill" being so difficult; every time I've played that map, they always end up fighting each other and the fight becomes a wash. I've tried making other bots throughout the map do the same, to see if it could make the fights easier, but never any luck. Is there a trick to this?

They are not bots!! I have never seen bots actually fight each other, perhaps the code doesn't allow it.
But now that you mention it, I can't remember another situation where I managed to make the enemies fight each other.

Maybe this is a difficulty thing, because, on hard at least, all three are Skaarj lords which is a class that doesn't in-fight.

Something tells me they are SkaarjBerserkers (which attack anything that comes too close)