Classic Unreal feel Vs. the Modern Feel

[Tarydax]

I've always enjoyed Classic Unreal style maps. If they emulate the Unreal atmosphere just right, chances are I'll love them; case in point, Doublez-Down's Return the Heart maps. Return the Heart doesn't necessarily do anything I haven't seen before, but they're wholly convincing as an extension of the Nali planet we all know and love.

Modern maps tend to have architecture that's much more complex than that of classic maps, and I appreciate them for pushing the boundaries of what the old Unreal engine can do while at the same time creating an entirely new experience for me. I do get tired of classic maps sometimes, and that's probably because they usually don't compare to modern maps in terms of architecture.

[salsaSkaarj]

To me everything boils down to quality and quality only.
Also new ideas / breaking the usual mold / new themes are welcome.

I'm with UB on this one. I am fond of the old unreal style of architecture AND of the new(er) style. But I can't really explain why or what exactly suits me (or not). The one thing, and I think I mentioned that before is that concerning the visuals, I don't want it too realistic. A game is a game and I have to be able to activate some part of my brain which expands on what I see. I have to be able to pretend that that's the world I'm playing in and too much attempt at realism just breaks the spell.
Quality is a funny word in this respect. Visually some of the UT2004 and even more so U3 maps are astounding, but the Unreal or UT maps (new and old) have more quality on the whole (although I have to admit I can't really judge UT2004 or U3 since I am strictly an U- and UT-person). I have the same kind of feeling about Minecraft (not that I play it) - visually it's so simple that I marvel wat what can be accomplished with such simplicity.
As for gametype (I also consider that breaking the usual mold). Using the Unreal engine to produce something like Vigil (old) or Bob - everyone needs a friend (new) is just great (Weedrow comes to mind, and also Qtit's Dragonfly). Nah, I can't really imagine that the fact that a map is old or new style would have an influence, because the "Feel" has more to do with the total package (visuals, atmosphere, fun, balance) than with complexity of architecture.

[Buff Skeleton]

Well, I'm talking about dragging down my perception of the mod as entire new non-Unreal thing. It's pretty hard to regard it as total conversion when you're traversing the same geometry/map layouts, however changed they may be. I didn't mean it drags down the pack quality-wise, since I'm perfectly aware how hard it would be to make everything from scratch and that EXU2 is an achievement on its own that doesn't explicitly need that.

Ah, yeah, although it's not meant to be a total conversion anyway! It's not set within the Unreal universe per-se, but it's definitely meant to be all about Unreal enemies and environments, just... hellified.

[ividyon]

Was there even a single product spawned by UT2004's Singleplayer Framework mod? I absolutely cannot remember any. I think that sort of thing would be relevant in this "modern feel" discussion.

[Semfry]

The single player framework was interesting, but, at least the version I played, had major flaws like still re-spawning after death (although a guess you could make a story built around that...)

[redeye]

I am in a constant mode of getting something new, a crap MH map suites me fine as long as I haven't played it a lot of times.But I don't have this thought about the old feel, it's all good.
I think for me, it's the thrill of the hunt to find and play new maps, if it has the old feel, or not.

[Gizzy]

if Firestorm has any such maps, but I certainly hope it does!

Can confirm that Firestorm has levels just like this

[Lightning Hunter]

if Firestorm has any such maps, but I certainly hope it does!

Can confirm that Firestorm has levels just like this

What I really long to see are some Skaarj Base/Mothership themes that have lighting similar to Jeremy War's Outpost 3J, or the Mothership levels. Hexephet is the only user-made map that pulls this off. The Skaarj Base/Mothership theme is extremely neglected, especially when it's easily the best looking of them all (at least in my opinion). If Firestorm has even one map that uses this theme as well as Hexephet, I would forever be a fan!

[SteadZ]

Operation Stealth Claw will include a Skaarj Base in one of the maps (not telling you which though ). In fact, I'm trying to make OSC as much a classic style pack as possible. But there will be 227 emitters used though...

[Nahand]

* BUMP! *

Hey all! I know i'm a bit late for the 'discussion', but i'd like to vent out anyway.
Classic FTW! *ahem *

Well, most of the things have already been posted before, but it boils down to: escapism + explorarion (as opposed to strict A-to-B route) + Unreal visuals. As mentioned before, escapism is one very valid reason, one that I feel is more accentuated with player age/responsabilities/adult life, perhaps? Exploration is a no brainer for the expansive player that likes travel and the new. :} On Unreal visuals, I found that they present a visually confortable alternative to visuals based on neutrals/black/white/grey and the design of the texture. This could be pointed in simple terms: the mind and the personality 'feel' colors and textures. As you all problably know, warm colors are confortable to many people (and i'd suggest, to introverted/pensive individuals), while bland/discolored tones are the opposite. So, in Unreal, there's warmth in the visuals in a stark contrast to ANY sci-fi shooter released in YEARS - that damn white/grey/silver/millenium look seems to pervade every damn 'future' (et tu Mass Effect? et al.). Unreal = warm + 'dirty'/busy, wich I feel, helps the escapism part a bit, since even in real world everything gets 'whited-out' and streamlined. To each his own, I suppose.
I'm also a fan of 'retro', and/or older games, and that might have something to do with it for me as well. Strangely, I will problably play all day maps that are/look 'old', much more than some pristine new work of mapping art. I get, at times, this strange sensation of 'kitch' about a given custom map, for example, that is technically mediocre but that, for some reason, appeals to me. It's a weird thing...

This is not to say I don't enjoy 'modern' maps, but, as i've stated before years ago, they are clearly separated from the 'classic' , just like LH pointed innitially. It is something worth noting if you are into mapping especially, and/or are a 'purist' of sorts about this.

Thus, I found myself so bound by this strong feeling that I forfeit UT (have some instalations of it for gameplay, and new maps for textures), gave away the CD's, and stubbornly stick to Unreal. For some reason, the editor didn't work on my PC, but since the marvelous patch work bringing Ued 2 and 2.1, not only I can enjoy Unreal much better, I have several maps on WIP status. Granted, by my record, I'll problably release one in the year 3000 (!). There's just that "something" about Unreal, its visuals, the music, the game menu (initial, and in-gameplay), the gameplay, sounds, the speechless MP bots (and the 'raw' botmach gameplay) that, all together, click my inspiration and mapping bug, like UT never really did. I played (and still play) UT for 10+ years, + - 6 of those, every day (!). It was about time to get over it, and let the hero rest in his glory.

Note: I had played Unreal before UT years ago. But only about 1 year did I got the CD from a familiar, for good.

Oh well... just my opinion

[Semfry]

I get, at times, this strange sensation of 'kitch' about a given custom map, for example, that is technically mediocre but that, for some reason, appeals to me. It's a weird thing...

I feel this at times too and I think this blog (which also has lots of other great general advice and insights despite being Counter-Strike centred) post describes where this feeling comes from well: http://www.johnsto.co.uk/blog/98 . Maps by beginners are frequently made with no limitation (conscious or otherwise) of ideas or design, such that while they're frequently a nonsensical mess they can also evoke the imagination with their inherent sense of surreality and abstraction.

[Nahand]

... exactly. It is the surreal of it all that draws me. I could say that the best creations in mapping are also, I feel, too mechanical at times. This is, by the way, a similar argument I had before about 2D vs 3D graphics in games. In essence, the 2D *could* lead to artistic interpretation, and certainly to more 'free' design, feeling more natural and, i'd say, more artfull. This is not to say 3D cannot be so - so many examples exist throughout the game industry alone capable of mesmerizing - but while the 2D is 'naturally' artsy, the 3D, for all its advantages, is not. The 3D specifically requires the person doing something with it to have the vision to know the 3D and use it in an way that would be beyond the apparent 'mechanic' nature of it. It is hard for me to put it into words. And, in my opinion, many 3D products clearly show this 'deficiency', be it for whatever reason the creator did it.

Back on topic, the pretiest, most dedicated maps are usually awesome, but can feel to mechanical in their final execution - and this is my 'argument' about some maps versus the bad maps - leading IMO to theme-predictability, and so, to visual "boredom". And I say it: I too am guilty of this, when I map some stuff, and am in fact purposedly trying of late, to 'break' themathically any new map I imagine/start. For a mental picture of this: a castle is a castle, and the mapper usually follows through with it on all the map. What i'm saying is, sometimes, it is better to break that theme homogenity (<sp?) for the sake of surrealism. For the sake of Unreal.

[Sinistral]

An Interesting discussion.

I would have to go with the more "traditional" Unreal level design style. I'm a big fan of the huge sprawling layouts with massive valleys, waterfalls, crashed ships, old mines and nail villages etc. It pains me to say that IMO the worst parts of Unreal are when they leave these themes. I didn’t really enjoy any of the Skaarj/Merc themed levels - always saw these as "just something I had to get through". The temple theme in Unreal can be either really good or really badly done, I like the atmosphere, but it feels repetitive even in the original game.

Modern packs look awesome, yet it seems few have much more to offer than new textures and high detailed architecture. Even this often comes at the expense of the map size and the attempts to add a "cinematic" feel to the game via OTT scripted events only serve to make it feel more linear to the player. Whenever I start to think like this when making maps I always keep in mind the reason I'm still playing Unreal.... It's the sense of nostalgia and awe I feel when playing those original style maps, remember coming out of the Vortex Rikers for the first time and looking around, walking to the edge of ledge overlooking a huge valley in an vast world, not knowing where (if anywhere) it would end. When this came out back in the day, this was a new feeling to have in a video game; this is where Unreal single handily killed the term “Corridor shooter” that was previously used to describe prior games such as Quake, Quake II etc.
Suffice it to say, the engine looks dated now, but on some levels it will never be beaten. Sure If I wanted ultra-flash modern graphics I would be playing the latest Crysis/Farcry/Alien Marines game rather than investing my time Unreal. For me personally, it’s not at-all about graphics. I don’t even use high-detail textures when I play because I want to keep the experience as close to the original as possible.

I understand that people are still working on total conversions/Mods for the original Unreal/UT but to be honest these days I don't really see the point, I want to see more original old-skool style action - not another Teamfortress or counterstrike clone for Unreal. It's all been done to death and can be done much better with newer engines.
It’s quite odd that some of the levels I really enjoy are some of the earliest released, along with some newer classics like Return the Heart.