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[u1] 'Forgotten' released!

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User avatar IronMonkey
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Subject: Re: Unreal Forgotten

Post Posted: 07 Feb 2010, 11:36

Sinistral wrote:
In the first couple of maps, I seem to get snagged on the surroundings quite a bit. After that, the problem went away.


Not really sure what you mean by this, there isn't any problems with the collision of the terrain as far as I've seen. If you could provide more detail on this I would be grateful.


Not really. Sorry. I never got stuck, merely unexpectedly stopped and then had to manoeuvre away.


Sinistral wrote:

Extremely annoying respawn for ever (as far as I can tell) Skaarj Gunner on the way out of one of the levels. Annoying, because it is not consistent with behaviour elsewhere and annoying because I wasted a ton of ammo and health before I realised that I was supposed to just run past the gunner spawn point (which could have been better done - the monsters just appeared on the spot without any hint of a justification)


Sounds like you've found a bug I didn't know about. I think you're talking about the spawns that appear after you've killed the Krall in the castle. The idea here is that with the Krall gone, the Skaarj come back to claim the territory. I didn't want to use more Krall in this section as by this point you'd already killed about 50.

The spawnpoint is supposed to produce one Skaarj on each spawnpoint and do it discreetly before you arrive back to the tunnels, if this didn't happen it's probably a bug.


Yes. The problem was at the centre of the tunnel on the way back from the castle. (sorry - I was being vague as I didn't want to spoil things for those yet to play)

If it was a bug then I also withdraw the comment about the respawn being unconvincing. A single gunner waiting for the player does not need an explanation as to how he got there.

On the topic of bugs, I forgot, I think you might have an off by one error on the count of Krall. I had reached zero and still had a Krall to kill - that might have caused your respawn error.


Sinistral wrote:
A minor HOM visible from high up in "The Krall Castle" from the edge of one of the buildings - not a significant issue.


Not seen this, if you can provide more detail, again I would be grateful.


Not near my desktop (I'm sitting in Erskine Swimming Pool viewing area at the moment - you'll know where that is!) but when I get home I'll try and grab a screenshot.
Sinistral wrote:

I do agree the final levels can be tricky in places, but it's all do-able. I've done it myself countless times during testing. The main advice on the Skaarj ship is to do what your there to do, and run away from the rest! There's no need to fight the entire Skaarj Army! It's funny too because someone in another thread complained that the final boss battle was far too easy.


There's no pleasing some folk. :)

I suppose the point is that you had too much practice. If I can compare my experience with Doom - when it first came out it took ages to get through and there was a ton of save-open door-die-reload. By the latter days of Doom's primacy, in order to get some challenge I took to seeing if I could play through the first ten levels without saving and most of the time I could manage it.

The lesson (if it is one) is to get a couple of players new to the pack to play a very late version if you want a realistic estimate of play time.

Sinistral wrote:
Right, now I that I've got all that off my chest, you can forget all about it and we can talk about the good things.


I'm glad there are some after all that lot!


Remember! They were "quibbles", not serious "you killed my puppy dog" complaints!

Sinistral wrote:
One overused bad joke aside, there was a nice thread of humour running through events.


There was? :shock:


e.g. the (very) big red button near the end (or is that supposed to be a complaint about scale?:))

Sinistral wrote:
Good though the valley exteriors were, where this map pack shone was in the bases.


I actually was worried the base interiors were the weakest part as a result spent loads of time making stuff to "fill them up".


Satisfactorily over-compensated! :)

User avatar IronMonkey
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Post Posted: 07 Feb 2010, 12:56

Image

Taken from the cliff edge at the back of the Nali village.

I actually had to hunt around a bit to recreate this.

I'd suggest either not fixing it or just sticking an extrusion on the cliff to block the view. :)

User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 08 Feb 2010, 15:36

hmm, nice homecoming with a new pack waiting.
Downloaded it yesterday and will play thoroughly very soon.

I had a quick run through yesterday evening and noticed that the snow falls everywhere but inside (buildings, tents).
I can accept snow falling through the trees (although the trees are covered with snow so it is a bit illogical), but snow falls under all overhanging rocks (and it can't be the wind because that should come from one direction only). It's not a big deal but somehow doesn't feel right.

User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 08 Feb 2010, 17:12

WOW! I finished playing the pack last night and the last few maps were really well done!!

I'm just going to go outright and say it: The Skaarj SpaceShip map was the best of the pack and a great finally. I thought the pack would be over after the previous skaarj battle, but I was dead wrong. Getting past that entire Skaarj army at the end and planting those explosives was an epic experience....

I honestly think this pack has its highs and its lows, but with a well made patch this entire pack could be something to remember for a long time.

User avatar Sinistral
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 16:25

Ironmonkey, thanks for taking the time to give me such useful feedback.

Sinistral wrote:


Quote:

One overused bad joke aside, there was a nice thread of humour running through events.



There was?



e.g. the (very) big red button near the end (or is that supposed to be a complaint about scale?)


Lol, OK, you got me there! It's hard not to do little things to amuse youself while working in UED.


salsaSkaarj wrote:hmm, nice homecoming with a new pack waiting.
Downloaded it yesterday and will play thoroughly very soon.

I had a quick run through yesterday evening and noticed that the snow falls everywhere but inside (buildings, tents).
I can accept snow falling through the trees (although the trees are covered with snow so it is a bit illogical), but snow falls under all overhanging rocks (and it can't be the wind because that should come from one direction only). It's not a big deal but somehow doesn't feel right.


Thats the problem, you work within the limitations of the engine. I did zone off all the main houses from the snowfall, but in the case of the tents, it didn't seem worth tearing a hole in the map by zoning off a tiny area, it's about finding the balance. The snowfalls isn't supposed to be "realistic" - If that was my aim I wouldn't be using the Unreal1 engine to do this, it's about it looking pleasent. Again, the problem you have with the emitter is that too much snow becomes a pain in the back-side, it effectivly blocks your view of the level.

jackrabbit wrote:WOW! I finished playing the pack last night and the last few maps were really well done!!

I'm just going to go outright and say it: The Skaarj SpaceShip map was the best of the pack and a great finally. I thought the pack would be over after the previous skaarj battle, but I was dead wrong. Getting past that entire Skaarj army at the end and planting those explosives was an epic experience....

I honestly think this pack has its highs and its lows, but with a well made patch this entire pack could be something to remember for a long time.


Thanks, I'm glad you had fun with the pack. If you have ideas on what requires improvment please feel free to get in touch, I won't know if people don't tell me.

User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 17:26

Sinistral wrote:Thanks, I'm glad you had fun with the pack. If you have ideas on what requires improvment please feel free to get in touch, I won't know if people don't tell me.


I didn't bother typing it up because I felt that other people covered most problems, but here is a go at it:

-Fixed snow particles (non sheet based)
-Better lit interiors with possibly more details. I'm mostly talking about the houses in the first few maps and parts of the Krall Castle. Most of the Krall Castle looks nice, but I could take some screenshots of a few areas which I think could use some improvements.
-Make sure the player knows what is going on at the end of the pack. I didn't realize that the ship was going to fly to the Skaarj Ship at the end and wasn't fully prepared for that. Maybe a cutsequence in the map before that will make the player realize where he has to go beforehand. (The missile room at the top might be an appropriate place to trigger this).
-Put more automags in the first level. I didn't find the automag my first go in the first level and I had to fight a few Skaarj warriors with only the DP.
-Make sure the Nali always respond to a player when they ask him to meet at the gate to get to the other side. I didn't have this problem, but I'm sure I could have if I blown his head off.
-Possibly more cut-sequences for the Human Military Base maps which make it easier for the player to find the next objective (Like a small sequence that shows the barracks if the player did not already grab that big bulky device)

Other little things to make the game easier for players who didn't create the maps make all the difference.

User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 18:40

jackrabbit wrote:-Put more automags in the first level. I didn't find the automag my first go in the first level and I had to fight a few Skaarj warriors with only the DP.


Nah, the bookmessage is clear enough and apart from 1 easy to kill devilfish (no need to enter the water even) there's nothing to stop you looking for it in the water (ok, a school of biterfish but those can be easily avoided).

And even without the automag it's easy to kill the Skaarj (attack from the other side of the water - they can never reach you - and the DP is your faithfull friend as usual).

I played on Hard (am now in level 4) and up to now it doesn't feel hard at all (something between Easy and Medium).

If an extra automag has to be added, do it only on Easy and on Medium

User avatar Sinistral
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 19:02

jackrabbit wrote:
Sinistral wrote:Thanks, I'm glad you had fun with the pack. If you have ideas on what requires improvment please feel free to get in touch, I won't know if people don't tell me.


I didn't bother typing it up because I felt that other people covered most problems, but here is a go at it:

-Fixed snow particles (non sheet based)


I don't believe there is a way to do this, this is the clas that 227 provides to do as snow. Doing it as individual particles would make it slower, not faster. It's a choice of 500 sheets on the screen or 5000 individual particles. I guess you could do one snowflake per sheet, but that seems wasteful.


-Better lit interiors with possibly more details. I'm mostly talking about the houses in the first few maps and parts of the Krall Castle. Most of the Krall Castle looks nice, but I could take some screenshots of a few areas which I think could use some improvements.


Of course, can never argue, more detail is better, I kept this pretty simple because I thought the Nali are simple people, I can add more detail to the house structures etc, but I do feel kind of limited to what Nali should have iniside their houses. The Krall castle, yes looking back there are indeed areas which could be improved, in fact everthing I see could be improved in one way or another, but where does it end? You guys have already played the pack now, is there any benefit of putting this work in for only a couple of detail tweaks?

-Make sure the player knows what is going on at the end of the pack. I didn't realize that the ship was going to fly to the Skaarj Ship at the end and wasn't fully prepared for that.


Umm, there was translator messages prior to this explaining the plan, maybe it wasn't clear enough.

Maybe a cutsequence in the map before that will make the player realize where he has to go beforehand. (The missile room at the top might be an appropriate place to trigger this).


Thought about a cut-scene mid-level. After I found out that Interpolation points don't work in MP I decided against the idea. I didn't really see the need for this in the end, the path is pretty linear, you walk past a locked door straight up to the silo, there are no other doors after this, the only logical path is to double back is it not?

-Put more automags in the first level. I didn't find the automag my first go in the first level and I had to fight a few Skaarj warriors with only the DP.


I think this was pretty clear from the translator message.

-Make sure the Nali always respond to a player when they ask him to meet at the gate to get to the other side. I didn't have this problem, but I'm sure I could have if I blown his head off.


If you kill the Nali you really don't have the point of the map right, and don't deserve to complete it LOL.

-Possibly more cut-sequences for the Human Military Base maps which make it easier for the player to find the next objective (Like a small sequence that shows the barracks if the player did not already grab that big bulky device)


Translator messages again! I didn't put them all in so someone could run straight through without reading them! :-)


Other little things to make the game easier for players who didn't create the maps make all the difference.


can't really win with this one, if you saturate the level with goodies people will scream it's too easy, if they don't explore enough to find the goodies it's too hard. I tried to hide stuff in various places throughout the maps in attempt to reward players that explore a little deeper. Now, it's easy for me because I know the maps like the back of my hand and know where everything is. This is all opinion and play-style oriented.

User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 19:17

Sinistral wrote:Umm, there was translator messages prior to this explaining the plan, maybe it wasn't clear enough.

I guess it should be no secret then.. I don't read translator messages when playing Unreal or any other Unreal SP Campaign. Simple as that. Never bothered with it really, and don't care for it. I guess by not supplying players with a proper arsenal at the beginning of the pack w/o having to read translator messages is the decision of the map-maker, so I can't really argue with it either.

But yeah, I was able to complete the pack 100% without having to read one message. There were times where I felt my odds were definitely low, but with my expertise in playing Unreal SP, I was able to make my way through with my limited knowledge. Why don't I read messages? I'm too lazy to read a damn message in a game. I prefer audio and cut-sequences instead. If I start getting stuck in the map (like when I had to backtrack to the barracks to get the large metal rod), then I start reading some messages because I'm stuck.

Sinistral wrote:I don't believe there is a way to do this, this is the clas that 227 provides to do as snow. Doing it as individual particles would make it slower, not faster. It's a choice of 500 sheets on the screen or 5000 individual particles. I guess you could do one snowflake per sheet, but that seems wasteful.


I'd actually argue against this. I think individual particles of 5000 count would actually be faster than 500 sheets. That's just my assumption though. You could always use distance fog to limit the rendering of snow particles too. A good combination would make the perfect effect IMO.

Sinistral wrote:Thought about a cut-scene mid-level. After I found out that Interpolation points don't work in MP I decided against the idea. I didn't really see the need for this in the end, the path is pretty linear, you walk past a locked door straight up to the silo, there are no other doors after this, the only logical path is to double back is it not?


Did you not have luck with that mutator I sent you a while back? I thought it would work fine with your cut-sequence but I guess not? I know Zora has a mutator that works in on her server at least.
Last edited by jackrabbit on 10 Feb 2010, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar ividyon
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 19:29

What emitter class did you use? 227 (pointlessly) includes two effect class hierarchies, namely Raven's(?) UIFX effects and Dots' particle emitters. Dots' emitter class should provide better performance since it's coded in C++ instead of UnrealScript.
UnrealSP.org webmaster & administrator

User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010, 22:44

jackrabbit wrote:...Other little things to make the game easier for players who didn't create the maps make all the difference.


At the risk of going slightly off-topic here.

How many people will play this pack? How many people will be new to Unreal this year?

The point which becomes obvious is that emphasis should be on the harder difficulty levels. People new to Unreal won't be playing this (yet) and those who are active here (even as lurkers) or on Beyond Unreal etc... are (personal opinion of course) ..say.. generally highly experienced and prefer some not so straightforward maps. What makes VVV, TLF (and I'll include Xenome) so interesting is that gameplay differs from the out of the box Unreal play we knew (and still like) and is a lot harder.

YES, on Easy it should be really easy (for the few new players that will come along) and Medium should be a bit tougher, but please make sure that Hard is worth playing on (and make Unreal difficulty something which really breaks a sweat).
Currently (had to stop with only 7 Krall left to kill) on Hard this pack lacks spice, it could do with some stronger enemies, or more concentrated, and slightly less ammo (the Krall don't stand a chanche against all those rifle bullets and eightball cannons, and razors and green blobs).


I may sound a bit harsh but I am just expressing the opinion of a player with average skill who feels something is missing (perhaps on Unreal difficulty I will be satisfied, but I am not an Unreal level player at all so it shouldn't be that way).

Sinistral however did touch my sensitive spot with the story development - I'm really curious how this wil develop.

My feeling: tweaking gameplay balance to make it more challenging seems more impaortant than making it easier - your public consists of experienced players, not starters.


BTW just noticed some errors in Simgol's text.

Your actually here should be you're
NAIL people should be NALI

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Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010, 04:04

"(although the trees are covered with snow so it is a bit illogical), "

huh?

I didn't play or see yet, but no leaves in winter, and believe me the snow gets through :lol:
Just ban everyone

User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010, 10:25

redeye wrote:"(although the trees are covered with snow so it is a bit illogical), "

huh?

I didn't play or see yet, but no leaves in winter, and believe me the snow gets through :lol:


Evergreens = leaves in winter!!

Anyway, the point is not that there should be no snow under the trees or that no snow should fall through. It's a game and too much realism would spoil the effect of the game, but the example with the trees shows how a nice feature can lose its effect (like snow falling in a building or under the overhanging rocks).

Like I said, it's not a big deal but just takes away some of the glamour of the effect. (and I realise it's probably a hell of a job and not worth trying to change it).

I'm not sure of this but there are maps with rain falling where the illusion is not broken - does the rain system differ that much from the snow system?

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Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010, 20:52

Finished.

I have to admit the last 3 maps are better. But only once was I in danger of getting killed - the battle with the queen. If the setting I played on (Hard) didn't change due to some kind of save bug then Hard is definately not challenging enough.

Sometimes where to advance to next is a bit unclear, a comment jackrabbit also made which I understand better now. I speciffically had problems in the Skaarj facility (or ship) where I had to climb lots of stairs to open some Silo doors but I had to go up and down a number of times and never found the silo doors opened - so I had to ghost through a door in order to continue).

I also noticed quite a few typing errors in messages (apart from the 2 I mentioned already) which should be corrected (I don't know how easy it is to list all messages so that englsih speaking members could offer some corrections - I would even be willing to give it a try if such a list were available).

About the 44 Krall which need to be killed - I think the number 44 applies to the number which needs to be killed for an event to happen - the number of Krall present in the castle is certainly higher - I killed at least 3 more after reaching the magical number.

I will have to play this again (on Unreal) to be able to from a better opinion on this pack as a whole - I feel that my initial disappointment is caused by the gameplay which doesn't contrast favourably with Bob (no battles) and with Xenome (very tactical battles). Looking back the surroundings are well done (the map with the Krall Castle is especially good (albeit) slightly underpopulated) and the Warlord fight is well set up (but again a bit too easy).

User avatar Sinistral
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Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010, 01:03

salsaSkaarj wrote:Finished.

I have to admit the last 3 maps are better. But only once was I in danger of getting killed - the battle with the queen. If the setting I played on (Hard) didn't change due to some kind of save bug then Hard is definately not challenging enough.


Well thank you for "admitting" that, I might be able to sleep a little sounder tonight knowing that.


Sometimes where to advance to next is a bit unclear, a comment jackrabbit also made which I understand better now. I speciffically had problems in the Skaarj facility (or ship) where I had to climb lots of stairs to open some Silo doors but I had to go up and down a number of times and never found the silo doors opened - so I had to ghost through a door in order to continue).


Umm, you're in a human facility at this point. When you climb the stairs your actually inside the Silo already (hence the large rocket you can see). All you do is hit the trigger, the silo doors open (and a message states this) and after this the missile launch button appears to your left (under the big sign that says something like "do not use unless defcon is set to position one") - kind of self explanatory I thought. When you press this button the missile launches (the one you can see through the glass) and the door at the bottom of the stairs to the hanger opens. I've never found ANY problems with this.

I also noticed quite a few typing errors in messages (apart from the 2 I mentioned already) which should be corrected (I don't know how easy it is to list all messages so that englsih speaking members could offer some corrections - I would even be willing to give it a try if such a list were available).


Yes, very kind of you to point out two spelling mistakes in my pack, I appreciate all feedback but when it becomes overly negative as yours has been I'm inclined to just ask that you don't bother to play it at all. Are you implying in some way that I don't speak English? Does a few spelling mistakes really make any difference? I spent months making this pack and all you can talk about is a few typos?
The Readme file has a list of translator messages that are included, but these were primarily for me to use the spell check feature in office on. I guess I missed a few. I don't see this as a big deal, looking at your post I can see numerous spelling errors, nobody is perfect. I stated clearly from my first post here I don't consider myself to be an "expert" or even close in UnrealEd, perhaps your expectations were incorrectly set.

About the 44 Krall which need to be killed - I think the number 44 applies to the number which needs to be killed for an event to happen - the number of Krall present in the castle is certainly higher - I killed at least 3 more after reaching the magical number.


Yep, you don't have to kill em all. The average player would no doubt miss a few Krall, and also there are some in hidden areas, I didn't include this in the count for obvious reasons.

I will have to play this again (on Unreal) to be able to from a better opinion on this pack as a whole - I feel that my initial disappointment is caused by the gameplay which doesn't contrast favourably with Bob (no battles) and with Xenome (very tactical battles). Looking back the surroundings are well done (the map with the Krall Castle is especially good (albeit) slightly underpopulated) and the Warlord fight is well set up (but again a bit too easy).


Not really much to say to this, if you don't like it... Don't play it.

I'm sorry if this sounds overly harsh, but maybe you get a taste of your own medicine.

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