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[usp] [u1] New review - deCyber Duel

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User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 04:10

IIRC, Redeem Your Space also has a proper Queen battle. I don't remember much from RyS, but I do remember that in particular because it was so well executed (like the original in Mothership). It was done over some Ancient.utx texture set based arena which made it even more original.

I wonder if that pack ever got translated to english... I would replay it in a heartbeat if it did.

sw33t, I got the second page.

User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 08:05

jackrabbit wrote:
I wonder if that pack ever got translated to english... I would replay it in a heartbeat if it did.


That's the only thing keeping me from downloading it. Last I heard translations were unlikely though.
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UBerserker
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 10:47

Okay time to countercomment some stuff I don't understand

salsaSkaarj wrote:Major gameplay errors are in the Krall arena - it's too easy to put distance between you and the action, and in the Boss arena, those 4 cages should never have been so close together.


I don't get you on the distance thing. You think it would be easy to avoid Krall Elite bolts by staying in the mddle arena's right? I don't think so. Even if I was on the staircase they were still dangerous. I used the DP against them because I needed other ammo. The Behemoths need to be killed with a Razorjack (doing headshots). Slith are easy so DP is good enough. Mercenaries are insane since they activate their god mode all the freaking time if you let them exit their cage.
As for the boss arena, you don't make much sense at all. How about fighting personally one boss at time?

Also comparing this to Vigil is like comparing Xerania to Attacked.
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User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 12:45

UBerserker wrote:Okay time to countercomment some stuff I don't understand

salsaSkaarj wrote:Major gameplay errors are in the Krall arena - it's too easy to put distance between you and the action, and in the Boss arena, those 4 cages should never have been so close together.


I don't get you on the distance thing. You think it would be easy to avoid Krall Elite bolts by staying in the mddle arena's right? I don't think so. Even if I was on the staircase they were still dangerous. I used the DP against them because I needed other ammo. The Behemoths need to be killed with a Razorjack (doing headshots). Slith are easy so DP is good enough. Mercenaries are insane since they activate their god mode all the freaking time if you let them exit their cage.
As for the boss arena, you don't make much sense at all. How about fighting personally one boss at time?

Also comparing this to Vigil is like comparing Xerania to Attacked.


It all depends on what one expects from a map and on how one plays (which kind of battles suit me most?). The points of the game is to beat the map so WTF should I put myself in a position which I don't envy and makes it a lot more difficult? Comparing it to Vigil was implying that in Vigil you always had to be very alert (at least I had to) so as not to get cornered. In deCyberduel I immediately saw the potential to save ammo, health and time in the Krall arena and in the Boss arena.

It's not up to me to make the battles harder, the map should prevent the too easy way out (like in the Skaarj arena where I really had a fight on my hands).

There's a difference with a map like Xenome where some fights are almost not doable in straight combat (for me) but the fact that one has to look for other ways of fighting becomes logical after the first few situations. In deCyberduel I didn't even have to think on how to make it easier - and then it wasn't even easier, it was almost a no fight because I was on top strafing round and the remaining enemies were below.

The way it should have been set up was a) no possibility to get all enemies at the same time and b) make sure the enemies can follow you around fast enough so that you can't have a rest while high and dry on the staircase.
I rest my case: gameplay in the Krall arena poses no challenge at all.

As for the boss arena, the same applies, I don't see the point of making it harder when my objective is to beat the map. Yes, I'll take them on one at a time when I want to practice my one on one skills with bosses, but not when I want to beat the map.

It's the same thing concerning Titans, I almost always use the DP because I need the other ammo for other enemies which pose more of a threat to me.

Just let me emphasise again that the concept of the map is good (even very good, which applies to Vigil also) but the way it was implemented did not fulfill my expectationas at all (while, for me, Vigil scored a lot higher in that respect).

UBerserker
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 13:00

Have you beaten all the Mercenaries alone in the Krall arena? When the group enter it normally? On Unreal difficulty? It's impossible to be untouchable at that point... unlike what happens to the Mercenaries themselves.
I never bothered pressing all the buttons. I went around taking the best potential the map had to offer, and the map has that bit and does it succesfully. I'd wanted it to score even higher but that's not possible. If I went to do it like in my opinion list I'd give it a 8. Do you think I rated the gameplay a ten because it was only moderately challenging? No, because it was overall fun and varied, at least in the way I tried.

I still don't understand why you're comparing this to Vigil. I don't care if both comes from a DeCyber thing, and I didn't play Vigil so it plays in the same concept as this? Arena fighting? I could simply say that packs like Xidia and 7B require you to be more alert but I don't see the point because DeCyber Duel is about fighting, not staying alert; it's impossible being cornered in any of the three arenas unless you just do something amazingly stupid. Xenome has nothing undoable since it's way too much predictable with all of those shut doors and large corridors around.

The only thing I found hard in this map were the Warlord, the Queen and most of all the moving column challenge.
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User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 13:16

UBerserker wrote:...Do you think I rated the gameplay a ten because it was hard? No, because it was overly fun, at least in the way I tried.


That's exactly my point. The map was fun for you, but less for me.
Ezkeel also mentioned it in his included readme - if you have a preference for the Unreal type experience rather than the hardcore fighting then the map may not be to your liking.

UB, you don't like Xenome because of the predictability (which I think is a valid point you make) and the constant DP use (well, that to me is a very nice part of the game). I have given my reasons for not liking deCyberduel that much. You don't have to agree but that's democracy for you sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.

PS as far as I am concerned Vigil is also a slaughterfest but there it's very difficult to force the enemies to eliminate each other. I can't remember being able to rest in the first arena.

UBerserker
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 13:22

salsaSkaarj wrote:UB, you don't like Xenome because of the predictability (which I think is a valid point you make) and the constant DP use (well, that to me is a very nice part of the game). I have given my reasons for not liking deCyberduel that much. You don't have to agree but that's democracy for you sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.


I was trying to suggest you to play the map in the "you vs single wave" way! D:
And no, the constant DP usage in Xenome doesn't exactly bother me as people think, I can pass on it. It will probably bother the players who are used to other weapons.
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User avatar salsaSkaarj
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 13:25

UBerserker wrote:...
I was trying to suggest you to play the map in the "you vs single wave" way! D:


I will eventually, but no time for the next 3 weeks.
But seriously, I may like the fighting then, but it doesn't change the fact that the map allows a much easier way out - which (IMHO) is neglect (since the map is meant to be hardcore).

UBerserker
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 13:54

To open the Chapel of Healing you have to do this:
1)Check the walls of the very first room of the map. You should see some large grey tablets with yellow figures painted on them. Shoot the one which shows a fish.
2)Go quickly in the corridor which you access once you exit an arena. You should spot a narrow opening in the wall (the same one which has the small tablets), which stays open for a while. You should spot a teleport inside it.
3)You enter an EZkeel chapel.
4)If you do the same thing by shooting the other tablets in the first room of the map you'll unlock the other corridors, but they lead to your death.
5)The ending of the level is still lulz.
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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 16:50

There are only two instances in the map where I can really say there are faults in the gameplay.

1) In the Lackey arena, the fact that the steps are too high for either the player or enemies to simply walk up is an interesting dynamic to the fight, but unfortunately this lends to some cheapskate holes in the AI here. Many of the enemies will try to get to you, but will be blocked and might get stuck in various freeze states in between animations (which is great for cheapshots)...or they might walk themselves into one of the gate passages and remove themselves from the fight. Basically, the fact that they don't know how to get to you prevents them from being truly dangerous, even on the hardest difficulties, as their effort to attack close negates their threat. The only ones I've noticed that make a serious attempt to jump up the platforms to get to you are the Krall. Otherwise, the roughest part of this fight is the Mercs (since they have the best distance attacks), which I usually handle first. I don't think I've ever been touched by the Brutes here, whereas I have caught stray Krall bolts and Slith slime on occasion.

2) In the Skaarj arena, the gaps between the doors are large enough for an evading player to back up into and get stuck for precious seconds, giving any Skaarj a chance to rip your face off. There's no way to negotiate this one here...since it's clearly mapping oversight. Otherwise this Arena is pretty effective.

These aren't exactly problems, since they are slight aspects to the level, and in a way they balance each other out (you get a bit of an advantage in the Lackey arena, you get a bit of a disadvantage in the Skaarj one). But I seriously doubt they were intentional factors of the map, and really that's where the question about whether they interfere in people's games gets its merit. Personally I find UB's review more than solid, and the scores acceptable, although I would have given Gameplay Balance somewhat lower (Balance and Awe seem backwards to me) and Technical Execution somewhat higher, since for a map of such age to be as accessible and functional as it is after all this time speaks volumes, especially in a community where many old classics tend to get passes for badly laid out technical effort. deCyber Duel holds up ridiculously well.
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User avatar Legendslayer222
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 20:08

Mister_Prophet wrote:Still, those aren't many examples.


Unreal! :P

Anyway, I've just played Duel, and it is amazing fun. Pretty much every situation is approachable from multiple angles. Every bullet has to count, there is no mucking around. I reloaded my game a couple of times because I didn't have enough ammo to continue, and wanted to preserve trophies! Lots of little extra and secret areas were dotted around, I loved pegging it through the dark room with the Tentacles. And that healing room is the same one from Legacy, isn't it? :) I did encounter one nasty bug in the deCyber arena though: The Warlord flew off over the cliffs never to be seen again. :o

UBerserker
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 21:52

Warlord and Artificial Idiocy always go together. It's possible that sometimes he makes himself visible again, just retreat somewhere and wait. He'll probably come out to search you. You should be always aggressive and use hitscan weapons agains the flying dude, and staying not too far, not too close from him.
Generally Mantas are way worse in this aspect. There are various cases, like in DV2, where they fly in the sky forever.

It's a bust now that Scrag got insanely busy, since I wanted to review the first three custom maps I ever played, but I think this one is probably the last for now...
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User avatar Hellscrag
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Post Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 22:06

UBerserker wrote:It's a bust now that Scrag got insanely busy, since I wanted to review the first three custom maps I ever played, but I think this one is probably the last for now...


I haven't gone yet - you can still send me content. The big RL stuff won't be happening for a few months yet.
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Post Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 04:13

Lol Wut with that ending.
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