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[ut] "Vacillations of a Victorian Vagrant"

The archive for the 8th Anniversary Speedmapping Contest entries and discussion.

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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:08

jackrabbit wrote:Guys.. I think you missed the part where I compared this pack to the original Unreal mother game. When I play unreal on 'Unreal', it is nowhere near the drastic changes in gameplay that I see here in VVV. Were talking about full scripted sequences changed because of the simple difficulty filters. Sorry, I'm going to have to say that affects the gameplay TOO much, making the experience for the player DRASTICALLY different depending on what difficulty they are playing. Taking a few quotes from my response and leaving out that part is pretty disrespectful on my part :shake:


It's not disrespectful, sheesh, relax. It's responding to the relevant bits.

Comparing this map to the mother game isn't really a well-founded thing to do, either, though, as Unreal was new to everyone when it was made. Standards have changed within this community and within the gaming universe as a whole, and so have standards for things like difficulty filtering.

Also, like any creative pursuit, you have to consider the audience. Unreal was built for a much, much wider audience because it was a retail product. 10 years later, not many people still play this game, so the audience is a bunch of die-hard fans, many of whom are very good at the game, and some of whom are new to it like when Unreal first launched. If, as a mapper, you want your map to shine, you need to appeal to your audience, and I mean your WHOLE audience. That means the newbies AND the experts. Having wide gaps between difficulty levels is the only way to do it with only 4 settings. That's really the bottom line.

Like I said, I had 2 completely different experiences when playing the Map on Unreal and then on Medium. This should simply not happen for a veteran player.

Um, yes, it absolutely should happen. It's called replay value. You want veteran players to be rewarded for trying out new difficulty levels. Simply adding a few more enemies, less ammo, and a different mix of health and armor doesn't offer anything significantly new for players on second or third runthroughs. Adding whole new scripted scenes shows a lot of dedication on the part of the mapper and makes each new playthrough fresh and exciting all over again, which is what every mapper should strive for as far as I'm concerned. I wish I had thought of stuff like that for TLF.

User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:12

Point taken. I understand that this was indeed intended to be done in the difficulty filters. What I don't understand is how anyone can possibly play that map on Unreal difficulty and enjoy it.

User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:15

Ask UB :P (Or anyone else as good as him, which I don't think is many people here!)

Hell, I'm going to give this map a go on Unreal now for sure just knowing that there are entirely new scripted events that didn't appear on Hard (or at least Medium; maybe they did appear on Hard).

User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:20

Waffnuffly wrote:Ask UB :P (Or anyone else as good as him, which I don't think is many people here!)

Hell, I'm going to give this map a go on Unreal now for sure just knowing that there are entirely new scripted events that didn't appear on Hard (or at least Medium; maybe they did appear on Hard).


Honestly, I think UB is full of it (I think I will keep further comments to myself).

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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:23

jackrabbit wrote:... What I don't understand is how anyone can possibly play that map on Unreal difficulty and enjoy it.

It depends on whether you still consider it feasible - it gives a kick to beat a really hard level.

User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:25

jackrabbit wrote:Honestly, I think UB is full of it (I think I will keep further comments to myself).

Why would you say this and then "keep further comments to yourself" - that's like the most passive-aggressive thing you can say. Either say it or don't say it.

User avatar Hellscrag
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:33

I can manage VVV on Unreal without vacillating too much, and therefore I KNOW that the difficulty settings aren't too bad, as I'm not a brilliant player. My target for Unreal difficulty was an experience slightly outside my comfort zone. Obviously I know the map inside out, which gives me an advantage, but in this day and age I definitely wanted to set a fairly high bar on Unreal difficulty for the REALLY leet players - or, in other words, make sure that UBerserker had at least a mildly challenging experience! :P

P.S. - You shouldn't encounter more than 5 Slith in the sewer unless you've found a bug! I assume you were exaggerating.

EDIT:

jackrabbit wrote:Honestly, I think UB is full of it (I think I will keep further comments to myself).


Was that really necessary?
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User avatar jackrabbit
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 19:34

Because I know UBerserker is not a bad guy. In fact, we would probably get along well in person. I just think he can become full of himself when it comes to his standards of difficulty. That is all!

I find such people more entertaining than anything else.. but when it comes to serious reviews for maps like these it's a whole different thing.

Hellscrag, I don't think its fair to say that you no problem beating the map on Unreal difficulty. You made the map!

This probably means you didn't miss absolutely anything and you knew exactly what to expect before playing the map. I don't think a player playing on Unreal for the first time should have to know this in order to successfully beat the map. I guess this is where we (Waff and Hellscrag) would disagree. I believe that a map on Unreal difficulty shouldn't require a playthrough on an easier difficulty. This map (at least for me) is a map which is impossible to predict on Unreal difficulty making it too hard for first-timers. Not to mention its not fun!

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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 20:00

jackrabbit wrote:... I believe that a map on Unreal difficulty shouldn't require a playthrough on an easier difficulty.

Correct, it shouldn't require a playthrough on an easier difficulty. But I actually expect lots of unexpected things when playing a new map and some maps were too much for me even on Easy. However, as I said before - I am a much better player now than 8 or 9 years ago and realise that I died many times because of carelessness and not taking advantage of the environment, nor using the correct weapon at the right moment. I actually learned a lot the last few years watching some of the MOTW playthroughs.

jackrabbit wrote:... This map (at least for me) is a map which is impossible to predict on Unreal difficulty making it too hard for first-timers. Not to mention its not fun!

If it's unpredictable then to me that's a good point. Having just the same but slightly stronger enemies, and me with less health and ammo isn't a stimulus to replay a map at a higher skill level.
The fact that I got killed at the first encounter with the 2 Skaarj doesn't put me off - I just have to be more carefull and also remember that I shouldn't rely on my experience at a lower difficulty setting. Even so, if I don't succeed, it will probably not be the map's fault, but lack of skill on my part. (my failure to finish the Enslaved map is most certainly because I lack those kind of skills :/ )

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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 20:04

I liked the map; I felt the theme could of been made much stronger if you had used none of Unreal's default textures, but that's not really suitable for a speedmap. Still even with that it managed to feel like a much older London, even with the hi-tech weapons and stuff. The little chutes in the main house (which I assume is the chutes they used to chuck garbage and sewage out onto the streets, right?) made me laugh as well. It was a good map that rewarded exploration

spoilers:
The machinery at the end was well done; it kinda reminded me of some of the industrial stuff you'd see in Half-life, but it also looked like it wouldn't be out of place in that period either.

User avatar Hellscrag
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 20:05

jackrabbit, I wonder if you heeded my advice in the Readme? I believe I covered my bases with that, including the observations you make about hidden stuff in your above post.

EASY - For beginners. Definitely the least interesting way to play this map.

MEDIUM - For occasional players with less experience.

HARD - For regular players with a fair amount of experience.

UNREAL - The most entertaining but also the most challenging setting. Avoiding taking damage will be a priority, often from multiple targets. Players will need to make good use of the Dispersion Pistol and locate most of the hidden weapons, ammo and powerups to prevail on this difficulty setting.


And, as I have indicated, I don't find the map a cakewalk on Unreal difficulty; I also already acknowledged my advantage in my earlier post.
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User avatar Hellscrag
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 20:10

Jblade - I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Jblade wrote:The little chutes in the main house (which I assume is the chutes they used to chuck garbage and sewage out onto the streets, right?) made me laugh as well.


It's a warehouse (built for storage), and those are actually hoists. Cargo is loaded onto dry land on the dock, then hoisted up to the top floor using chains. Here's a real-life example for you:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... f_1990.jpg

Jblade wrote:spoilers:
The machinery at the end was well done; it kinda reminded me of some of the industrial stuff you'd see in Half-life, but it also looked like it wouldn't be out of place in that period either.


spoilery response:
I was going for a crazy hybrid of authentic industrial and futuristic technology. I guess you could call it Steampunk, if you wanted to give it a label.
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User avatar Jblade
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Post Posted: 04 Aug 2009, 20:23

Ah, cool - Victorian architecture is both depressing and awe-inspiring to me for some reason. I think it's just the size of the buildings but also the fact that they look very similar most of the time that does it.

User avatar DooTs
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Post Posted: 14 Aug 2009, 14:14

i thought this was very nice though i had an error at first but its fixed, i think it was my ini

sorry i have not read the rest of the thread but will you be continuing/expanding or making a continuation of this in some form?
will speedmapping contents be a more regular thing?....i have not really tried my hand at much mapping (no inspiration) but this seemed like a good idea

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Post Posted: 14 Aug 2009, 16:00

DooTs wrote:i thought this was very nice though i had an error at first but its fixed, i think it was my ini

sorry i have not read the rest of the thread but will you be continuing/expanding or making a continuation of this in some form?
will speedmapping contents be a more regular thing?....i have not really tried my hand at much mapping (no inspiration) but this seemed like a good idea

Hopefully there will be more speedmaping contests here in the future :tup:

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