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User avatar Jigoku
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 11 Aug 2012, 02:19

What are semisolids for anyway? I don't get it. :|
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User avatar Jet v4.3.5
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 11 Aug 2012, 06:38

All Rights Reserved wrote:What are semisolids for anyway? I don't get it. :|


Semisolids basically take on cuts, but don't give them. Sounds good at first, but the way they're incorporated into the BSP tree can cause severe side-effects that solids don't ever have. With solids, you can have a HOM, then you can fix it by changing brush order or by removing some of your detail geometry. With semisolids, there is no logic to some of the errors they can create. A good example is null zones, but there are many more ridiculous things they can do to really screw your map up.
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 12 Aug 2012, 16:24

Right I'll try making the light a solid (it is a semisolid right now) and see what happens...
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 12 Aug 2012, 16:29

Rebuilding.................................. :|

Raytracing, blah, blah, blah...........

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! \o/

It worked.

(I know it's not that much of a big deal, but I was getting really bugged by that.)

Once again thanks, Waff!
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 17 Aug 2012, 22:58

Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh! :x More HOMs :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

Right I've got a nice medium room, octagonal, with a chandelier hanging from the ceiling. When you look at the walls at a certain angle, they are fine:Image

When you look slightly higher or lower:Image

Please help.
(and yes ,Waffnuffly, everything is on-grid)
Last edited by SteadZ on 28 Mar 2018, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
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redeye
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 05:10

All Rights Reserved wrote:What are semisolids for anyway? I don't get it. :|


Use zone view and see the shaded triangles, they only stick to the brush and not the other surrounding brushes.

Also they say don't intersect into a subtract, it will permanently ruin the subtract if you delete the brush later.
So I think, I changed the brush to a solid add brush, rebuilt, then deleted that, but am not sure if that is a fix, seemed to work.

they also cause collision problems or BSP holes way on another side of the map.

What I do with those semisolids is if I make a one complex brush made by surrounding an array of brushes with the working brush intersect or deintersect for a one large complex brush like a walkway or some conglomerated mass I want as one brush.

Then i take that one brush and not intersect but just have it touch at least one subtract wall not all floating.then if i need to add more adds I use solids that touch it and or the subtract and it, rest in position not intersecting.then once I am away from the semisold i go back to intersecting.

Or I will intersect it knowing in advance I will never change the original subtract I intersected it to.

You see since the one large brush has a lot of polys in the first place, it would be better to keep them all stuck just to that one brush, and since a semisolid does that, I figure it's the best use for semisolids.
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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 15:38

Need 2d editor shots. There's no way to tell what's wrong from just from those shots.
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 20:04

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Last edited by SteadZ on 28 Mar 2018, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 20:30

I can't really tell since the image is so small (can you not post a bigger image, thumbnailed? Also image shack sucks, use imgur.com), but it appears you have a semisolid cone with nonsolids intersecting it from below. Make ALL of those brushes solid.

The only things that should ever be nonsolid are zone portals; nothing else needs to be. Semisolids should never be used unless you have to, but you should NEVER EVER EVER let semisolids come into contact with nonsolids.
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 21:30

Thanks once again, you've saved me (again).
The problem with tutorials is that they don't tell you these things, and they should.

P.S.
I'll keep in mind to make better images or not use imageshack. It usually works though. Strange...
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redeye
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 18 Aug 2012, 23:22

The way I would tell it is, don't let the green ones hit the pink ones. lol
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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 19 Aug 2012, 00:20

Yeah, looking over the mapping tutorials section on the site, it's clear we need some modernized info put up, especially with 227 available. A lot of those old mapping tips make me cringe; some of the info is just bad advice! Including some of mine :lol:
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User avatar SteadZ
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 19 Aug 2012, 09:00

When were those tutorials last updated?
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 08:35

The only thing I use semi-solids for is to fix hom from solids. even then I usually move the semisolid one unit away from all solids and never touch a nonsolid EVER.

Non solids I use all the time though. when I have a tower outside on some terrain a lot of times it is safer to make a solid above the terrain and then use blockalls and nonsolid skirts to make the tower look and feel real but it is actually floating above the terrain so there will be no bsp errors with the solid tower and the terrain (but of course my terrains are completely insane so that is why I do it like that.)

nonsolids can work for ceiling beams and stuff too in case your map is over poly'ed or over noded or if that brush you just added just fecked the whole room up with HOM. Just make sure they do not touch anything. so in a 256x256 space make a 64x254 ceiling beam or you might get even more HOM.

In order to fix a problem you sometimes have to do desperate manouvers to get things back.
Like semisolids with collision turned on in the brush properties, but moved one unit away from the wall so that your bsp hole goes away. Or nonsolid sheets with a blockall underneath so that floor seems solid but is no longer breaking the map.
Like I said I have delt with some massively crazy hom and ued problems. and learned how to fix them.
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User avatar Hellscrag
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Subject: Re: Worst HOMs ever.

Post Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 10:24

I still stand by the tips I wrote for this site, which promote the very extensive use of semisolids - I would only add the following clarifications:
- Semis should stay out of contact with ALL nonsolids, not just zone portals.
- Semis can sometimes create additional zones inside themselves, eating into the maximum zone count. If this happens (you can find them by browsing the map in zone/portal view), turn them solid. The only additional colour you should ever see inside a semisolid is that of the null zone, which is a dark, murky brown.

Why do I insist on this, despite their bugginess? Because less BSP cuts means fewer nodes against the node limit and fewer unexpected errors, particularly where intricate decorative brushes are involved. Cuts caused by unnecessarily complex solid or subtractive geometry radiate throughout the surrounding area and can result in errors quite some distance away from the cause.

Turning solids semisolid does nothing to solve the underlying problem in most cases. If the brush itself is the cause of the problem then it may help, but it's better to fix the brush. In most cases, however, the brush is just being affected by dodgy solid or subtractive geometry elsewhere, which it's better to track down and fix to avoid additional problems cropping up later (and it's much easier to track down and fix such problems if most of your decorative brushes are semisolid).

Just look at Triskaden Station. If all the semis in that map were solid, particularly around the central cave, I dread to think what would have happened to the BSP. As it happens there is only one known BSP error, as you drop down into the trench under the main concourse, which I somehow failed to spot at the time even though it's pretty obvious.

Nonsolids can be a good alternative if you don't need them to collide or to occlude light.
Last edited by Hellscrag on 04 Sep 2012, 10:29, edited 4 times in total.
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