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I hate Warp Zones

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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 07:15

It's funny to think it, but I'm somehow getting confused as of late messing with Warp Zones. I used to have no trouble with these in the past. But first it was the UED Game of Telephone where I had issues, now I'm having another.

Okay so here's my woe. I have a building that is bigger on the inside then the outside appears, with a Warp Zone transition leading the player through a short foyer from the main door. I have the standard Warp Zone in cube, Warp Zone out cube. Both subtractions have the same dimensions (128 units wide, 96 units deep, 192 units tall). Both portals have the same sheet dimensions (129 wide, 192 tall). No actors are present inside the zones besides the WarpZone info. When I enter the foyer, the portal in displays an HOM. I can enter fine despite this and when I turn to look, the view out (facing the foyer) looks normal.

Pic examples:

Looking in


Looking out


Things I've done to remedy the situation, all the usual ways I used to know of to fix this:

-Deleted Portals, added new ones
-Rotated Portals (usually makes it so both sides don't work)
-Added additional geometry in the foyer to make sure the player never sees skybox
-Readded Warp Zones. No effect.


No luck. Don't get it. Mad now.
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User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 07:59

Hmm. Right now the only thing that comes to mind is "Transform Permanently" on the zoning sheets. Not sure how likely that is to fix anything, but it's certainly worth a try!
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User avatar editor Dave
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 10:17

Are the sheets' surfaces marked "2 sided"? Would it help if the width was an ED-friendlier number like 160? Did you do a full rebuild (if yes, try only geometry, if no, vice versa)?


Other than that, I'm not that familiar with Warp Zones. Although interesting concepts can be created with this, I have always preferred building interior and exterior areas in the same scale and as a whole. :P
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:13

Hmm I would have suggested all the things you tried, only other thing I can think of is delete in/out cube and the sheets. Rebuild All, Save, Exit. Reopen saved file, Subtract the same in/out or use a build room to create two identical added cubes that have the same subtracted entrance rebuild all then readd new sheets...(unless you go the add cube with a subtracted cube then rebuild all before you polygons to brush the whole thing then rebuild all after adding the poly'ed to brushes...then readd the zone sheets)

maybe that will work. Normally I love warpzones, but yes occasionally it becomes nightmarish.

edit: oh one other thing how many zones do you have? getting close to 61 WILL cause random HOM. Maybe you should create a central water/slime/lava cube and then use small "pipes" size by size by 2 units and connect the waters/slimes/lavas together to conserve zones.
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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:39

editor Dave wrote:Are the sheets' surfaces marked "2 sided"? Would it help if the width was an ED-friendlier number like 160? Did you do a full rebuild (if yes, try only geometry, if no, vice versa)?


They were 2-sided. They are currently 1-sided, as per default. Same difference in so far as the issue is concerned. The width being 128 shouldn't be a problem, and the 96 units deep shouldn't be either (in the tradition of Warp Zones, 72 is the tightest you want to go).

Ozma777 wrote:Hmm I would have suggested all the things you tried, only other thing I can think of is delete in/out cube and the sheets. Rebuild All, Save, Exit. Reopen saved file, Subtract the same in/out or use a build room to create two identical added cubes that have the same subtracted entrance rebuild all then readd new sheets...(unless you go the add cube with a subtracted cube then rebuild all before you polygons to brush the whole thing then rebuild all after adding the poly'ed to brushes...then readd the zone sheets)

maybe that will work. Normally I love warpzones, but yes occasionally it becomes nightmarish.

edit: oh one other thing how many zones do you have? getting close to 61 WILL cause random HOM. Maybe you should create a central water/slime/lava cube and then use small "pipes" size by size by 2 units and connect the waters/slimes/lavas together to conserve zones.


Yeah I've rebuildt the subtracted cubes and the sheets several times. It makes me think that it is the room with the "walk in" is contained. It's possible something in the room is effecting the sheet entry there negatively. I've made it so that it's impossible to view the sky and the warp entry on the same screen, but as it stands the map currently has no skybox set anyway so I wouldn't be getting a skybox related error yet.

I have 21 zones so far with the map, nowhere near the danger amount. I typically try to use less than 30, this is already high for me.

Yeap. Papa is stumped. I'm gonna mess with the geo in the room prior to this warp, maybe it's something unrelated.
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:58

Do the warp zones currently fit into the geometry of the room? If so maybe making them bigger will work (in theory it should be worse, but perhaps the vertices touching geometry does some weird stuff). Of course this goes the other way if the portals are already bigger.
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 16:32

Is this map mostly built or is it fresh? I'd isolate just the warpzone stuff into its own separate .unr for testing and see if the problem repeats when it's contained inside of a barebones giant cube. If it does, something is effed with the warpzone geo and if not, it could be a combination of BSP cuts from elsewhere in the map hosing everything.
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gopostal
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 17:22

What Buff said. I had this same issue and did almost exactly what he suggested and found it was unrelated BSP sending a cut through the warpzone and messing it up. Had to shift things around a bit to clear the problem.

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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 17:34

Mister_Prophet wrote: The width being 128 shouldn't be a problem, and the 96 units deep shouldn't be either (in the tradition of Warp Zones, 72 is the tightest you want to go).

Oh, so this was a typo then?
Mister_Prophet wrote:Both portals have the same sheet dimensions (129 wide, 192 tall).

Of course, 128 is perfectly fine lol
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User avatar Ozma777
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 18:13

Also I have moved rooms far away before and that removed the bsp and/or hom errors from warpzones and other rooms' problems.

Try moving the target room(s) and/or the sendfrom room(s) somewhere else or highlight the whole map and move it away from it's current location, or if all else fails you could copy/paste the whole map into a new editor.

In any case rebuild all WITHOUT the warpzone in/out rooms warpzone info's and the sheets. Then maybe even save/exit and reopen before adding them again.

What I would do if you move it into another editor, load your map in one, then select new map (so the textures are still loaded) then open a new editor with your map in it also, select it all and copy paste (and maybe move it up/down/left or right or some combination of those ALSO)

Hopefully something will work, because my SP map (almost finished) just killed itself too, and I hate trying to get things to work again so I can release a map but with my UT99 bunnytrack maps I have had to MAKE things work A LOT but something always will work out.

(in my SP a whole section's textures went white for no reason which I might ask about some other time if I can't fix it)
But with mine and also with yours I would try various combinations of taking old copies of the rooms and (deleting/rebuilding the broken rooms) pasting the old back in. Or moving the whole map. Or copy/paste to a brand new map.
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User avatar Jet v4.3.5
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 04:55

I just tested this to refresh my memory on warp zones. I usually don't tend to use them but it seems there are only a couple different rules to go by:

  1. Make sure the profile of the hallway is identical on both sides (at least where the portal sheet cuts through your subtracted space). I think this is self-explanatory, but let me know if it isn't.
  2. The 'normal' side of the plane should point out into your main playspace from which the player enters on both sides of the portal. In other words, both sides' normals will point out of the warp zone. If you're using one-sided planes the normal will be easier to identify since that will be the side that the texture appears on, but you can also attempt to rotate a portal plane that is two-sided around 180 degrees find when it points out away from the zone behind it.
  3. Zone portal planes should have the same texture positions and rotations on both sides. You can ensure this happens by doing a 'polygons to brush' right-click operation and using the resulting copy to ensure the data is never different when you add in the plane to the other side of the portal. Refrain from doing a transform over X, Y, or Z, 'transform permanently', or adjustment to the verts of the zone portal plane, as this will increase the likelihood that you texture coordinates will break.

And I may have missed some quirk of the system that could be causing you problems, not to mention simple BSP issues that may have nothing to do with your process for building the warp portals.

The thing to keep in mind is that texture coordinates are vitally important. You can have a square corridor with a portal at each end linked to one another, and rotate the texture of one of the planes 90 degrees and have players suddenly fall into the 'wall' of the corridor once they come through the portal, essentially re-orienting space and gravity in certain contexts (meaning you could have players who enter one area appear to another player to be on the ceiling of what seems to be the same room, and other Escher-esque things like that).

Normals are also important, since that's the surface that the 'other side's' level geo is going to be rendered onto, until a player passes into the little warp-zone space behind it and suddenly appears on the other side. Which I would think also requires relative calculation based on either texture alignment or the origin of the brush (the little dot vertex that isn't connected to the geometry in the editor), though I wouldn't be able to explain it to you like someone who knows how it's implemented would.

EDIT: and as per this...
Mister_Prophet wrote:-Rotated Portals (usually makes it so both sides don't work)

You may be rotating the normal of a portal plane that is pointing correctly into the warp zone space and thus in the wrong direction. Try one, then rotate it back and try the other, then both. Might help, might not, but it looks like that may be what's happening unless you've already tried that.

EDIT 2: I looked as closely as I could at your two screenshots, and I can't tell for sure, but you may be having problems if your portal sheet is right on the edge of your zone portal subtraction and therefore coplanar to the wall that the portal is on. This tends to break everything with zone portals in general, so it would be no surprise to me if that were the cause of your problem.
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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 03 Jul 2015, 00:03

Buff Skeleton wrote:Is this map mostly built or is it fresh? I'd isolate just the warpzone stuff into its own separate .unr for testing and see if the problem repeats when it's contained inside of a barebones giant cube. If it does, something is effed with the warpzone geo and if not, it could be a combination of BSP cuts from elsewhere in the map hosing everything.



I want to thank everyone for their suggestions and assistance. Ultimately, Waff's suggestion revealed the issue I was having (BSP cuts. Or so I think. The bug did not replicate in a new .unr, geo included).

What is interesting is that the level no longer uses Warp Zones for the sequence I was making. In effort to get work done, I tooled around the issue and in a spurt of creativity...kinda made a way more interesting building. It goes to show that sometimes a roadblock is all you need to build a new path.

Still, the suggestions here were good so I hope other people having issues read them. :tup:
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User avatar Sat42
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Subject: Re: I hate Warp Zones

Post Posted: 23 Dec 2015, 01:05

Bumping this thread due to a small question, the answer to which doesn't appear obvious in previous posts:
- I got around to trying to fix lingering visual issues with the warp zones in the UED Game of Telephone project, but frankly the corridors leading to the warp zones look perfect.
- so BSP cuts can screw up the visuals at the warp zone? OK, makes sense really, but do such cuts become visible when viewing in "Zone/Portal" mode in the editor? Because nothing abnormal appears to me when viewing the relevant areas in that mode (which I thought would show BSP cuts - I'm guessing I was wrong)
- I'll try to rebuild the portal sheets bearing in mind what Jet said (normals and texture positions) in the meantime
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