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Some mapping questions. I need help!

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User avatar FXANBSS
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Subject: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 01:30

Hello.

Ok, here i have some things that i REALLY need to know for mapping and something else too, because i want my stuff to be very stable, please try to answer all them and i could be at least a decent mapper.

Do you know the "name" thing? Yeah, for example, SkaarjWarrior0, SkaarjWarrior1... Now you understand what i am talking about.
- Here i go, What if two actors have the same "name"?
Well, i know about this, some shit can happen, crashes, but it does happen with all actors?
Also i have seen that the order of the "name" thing keeps when EVEN going to other map (Happens when you press the "New..." button too, you just have a ZoneInfo1 and Brush1 {BrushBuilder} and Camera6 to Camera11.), THIS IS ANNOYING, though you fix it closing and opening UED with the next map you want to modify.

When you place the new object in the next map with Brush0 to Brush43 (In the previous map do you have Brush0 to Brush243, there is no Brush 143.)
This is what happens: Do you place a brush, now do you have the Brush143 there (My Theory, haven't tested, i need help about all this!) Then i place a second brush. Now it's called Brush234.

This is how the brushes names look like while looking at the "Search for actors...".
There is only Brush0 To Brush43,Brush143 and Brush 234.
This engine is really fucked up, damn.
But there is a problem if there is a missing class's number between all these numbers?
Maybe not, but only if the last brush is called Brush1000, because it has 1 more number(The map size is slightly more high. lol I REALLY CARE ABOUT THAT.), and if you have a blank space. (There is no Brush434). Just use CTRL+C (Not the CTRL+C of UED, i mean the button that is shown in UED, i have seen there is a little difference when pasting it to a notepad, maybe it doesn't change anything but i dont know!) then paste the Brush1000 info to the notepad and then rename the "name" value to Brush434, close UED, re-open it, then paste the Brush434, but wait... i have seen some value that i don't understand and i want to know what is that thing!

What is the model value?
Sometimes i have found brushes with the model value very far from the brush's number.
Ex: Brush44 has Model456
Why the model is Model456?
Maybe there were some deleted brushes while making the map, and the Model value was counting the stuff. (Maybe the model value just counts brushes, what about movers?)
When i change the Model name UED crashes. (Probably because there is a model with same name, damn.)
I am not going to check EVERY actor of a map, it's just very annoying...

Now going to talk about other thing.
- How do i scale brushes?
With the brush scaling option?
If i use the brush scaling the textures are scaled too.
What about using the CubeBuilder config? (It can be opened using right-click at the cube.)
The cube is scaled, not the textures, there is a stability difference between these two ways?

Other thing i will talk about.
- Well, this is not really a question but as i know, YOU MUST DO NOT place a subtract brush at the (0,0,0) coordinates of the map, there is the technical stuff there! There are some mutators that adds objects at that coordinates for some weird reason.

- This is %100 not a question, When you move the brush from place, subtract and then press "Alignment, Wall Direction" it seems to change, but i know how to fix it, set the grid to 256 (I like to have synchronized brushes and also pathnodes, lights, just everything, except the height of the actors, obviously.)

Sorry for the headache while reading this.
Greetings.
Nothing to say. :D ;)

User avatar ebd
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 16:15

Which version of UnrealeEd are you using? In 2.1 (227) at least, names are handled in such a way that I have never seen a collision occur, even when copying and pasting. Names are assigned at the engine's discretion as far as I am concerned; they can be used at a given moment to reference an actor but the name assigned to that actor may change, or at least I've seen it change. As such I never really bother about names and just let them be what they will be, and if thye change, then so be it. For classes that with Actor references, it is necessary to enter names a great deal but if the names of the referenced actors change after the fact is isn't a concern as the name is used only to obtain the reference.

The 'model value' you speak of is just a name. Every newly instantiated model with have a new name. When you alter a brush it sounds logical that it would have a new model, but I've never worried enough about it to check.

Brushes can also be scaled by altering the post-scale in the actor properties of the brush, but that probably also changes the texture scaling. I don't scale brushes very much (in b4 "but ebd you don't map very much")

The origin (0,0,0) is the default position for any new actors spawned without speicified coordinates. I've never heard of or experienced weird things happening if you have a brush there though. Where did you read not to do that?

Hopefully that at least partially answers some of your questions.

User avatar FXANBSS
Skaarj Assassin Skaarj Assassin
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 18:52

I have heard about Unreal ED 2.1, i dont know where to get it, i only have the old 2.0 version. It is better? Build options too?
About the build options, what is the best config?

About the origin, yeah, i have seen some problems when playing with retarded mutators, there is empty ammo that you can pick at the origin. weird!
Buff Skeleton wrote:Node Limit: 65,536 (theoretical), "45" - 55,000 (practical)


Oh, i forgot, but do someone know that every time you build lightning, geometry and these stuff, the map size becomes more high. (I mean, more bytes of size per click.)
Maybe can be fixed by copying all the actors and then move them to a new map, i don't know, maybe that can fix that extremely small byte size difference.
Nothing to say. :D ;)

User avatar ebd
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 00:46

FXANBSS wrote:I have heard about Unreal ED 2.1, i dont know where to get it, i only have the old 2.0 version. It is better? Build options too?
About the build options, what is the best config?

About the origin, yeah, i have seen some problems when playing with retarded mutators, there is empty ammo that you can pick at the origin. weird!
Buff Skeleton wrote:Node Limit: 65,536 (theoretical), "45" - 55,000 (practical)


Oh, i forgot, but do someone know that every time you build lightning, geometry and these stuff, the map size becomes more high. (I mean, more bytes of size per click.)
Maybe can be fixed by copying all the actors and then move them to a new map, i don't know, maybe that can fix that extremely small byte size difference.
UnrealEd 2.1 is part of the unofficial Unreal 227 patch that adds a lot of bug fixes and new features, such as more stable geometry, more precise lighting control, a bigger node limit (stays stable until around 80,000 nodes, maximum is much higher but you are likely to hit the vertex limit first), particle systems, static meshes, and further enhancements. UnrealEd 2.1 is designed to create levels targeting Unreal 227, but can target Unreal 226 or 436 (Unreal Tournament) if you are careful.

Some people swear the Unreal 227 patch ruined their life so I feel obligated to give a word of caution about it as well.

gopostal
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 02:05

Actors will never share the same name after a 'Build all'. You can force some weirdness in the editor by not cleaning up messes you generate by building everything periodically. During a build the engine creates an actor list, cleans up the trash, culls unused things, etc. Until that is done you can get odd stuff to happen with all kinds of things.

Don't get too stressed about the engine's numbering convention. It means nothing really, it's just a way for it to differentiate between actors of the same class. Once the map loads the engine creates it's own arrays of things anyway and these won't necessarily match.
FXANBSS wrote:About the origin, yeah, i have seen some problems when playing with retarded mutators, there is empty ammo that you can pick at the origin. weird!

This can happen when a location isn't declared correctly for something spawned into the game. If it doesn't know where the object is supposed to go it can default to (0,0,0).

User avatar FXANBSS
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 18:41

ebd wrote:UnrealEd 2.1 is part of the unofficial Unreal 227 patch that adds a lot of bug fixes and new features, such as more stable geometry, more precise lighting control, a bigger node limit (stays stable until around 80,000 nodes, maximum is much higher but you are likely to hit the vertex limit first), particle systems, static meshes, and further enhancements. UnrealEd 2.1 is designed to create levels targeting Unreal 227, but can target Unreal 226 or 436 (Unreal Tournament) if you are careful.

Some people swear the Unreal 227 patch ruined their life so I feel obligated to give a word of caution about it as well.


What? Why i need to be careful with Unreal Tournament? There are some classes that are not from UT?

gopostal wrote:Don't get too stressed about the engine's numbering convention. It means nothing really, it's just a way for it to differentiate between actors of the same class. Once the map loads the engine creates it's own arrays of things anyway and these won't necessarily match.


Oh, thanks, you saved my life of being 100 years checking everything. :P


I have modified this map a bit, only i have put monsters and modified a few stuff, textures are not changed right now, the author is unknown, so i am not going to publish this, this is just for my fun.
I want to put the EXU2 Hell Skybox, but if i use CTRL+C and CTRL+V, it crashed (Only in other maps, not this one.).
Maybe the model value is attacking again!, maybe i need to check the last brush placed in this map and look at his name and model name, so i will rename all the brushes's name and model names i will copy, they are a few, at least, i hate when some brush has same name or model name.

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Nothing to say. :D ;)

User avatar ebd
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 23:43

FXANBSS wrote:What? Why i need to be careful with Unreal Tournament? There are some classes that are not from UT?
UnrealEd 2.1 was designed for Unreal 227 and not Unreal Tournament. You can still load the UT and botpack stuff if you want, and take advantage of the new brush tools and enjoy the more stable editor, but the newly added features like a higher node limit, static meshes, and particle emitters can't be used with Unreal Tournament.

gopostal
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 28 Nov 2015, 14:44

The particle emitters alone are worth the price of admission to 227.

User avatar FXANBSS
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 28 Nov 2015, 17:10

Sorry, but, i tried to find Unreal ED 2.1, but no downloads.
Maybe you know where i can download it.
I need to download the complete Unreal for it? I don't want that Unreal. (Never tried a newer Unreal, i have 224 (UnrealGold)... Maybe i think i will try it, if the UED 2.1 is there. Probably.)

Thanks for advance.
Nothing to say. :D ;)

User avatar ebd
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 28 Nov 2015, 22:03

FXANBSS wrote:Sorry, but, i tried to find Unreal ED 2.1, but no downloads.
Maybe you know where i can download it.
I need to download the complete Unreal for it? I don't want that Unreal. (Never tried a newer Unreal, i have 224 (UnrealGold)... Maybe i think i will try it, if the UED 2.1 is there. Probably.)

Thanks for advance.
It is part of (and distributed with) the unofficial Unreal 227 patch, which can applied to your Unreal Gold installation. You can get the patch at http://www.oldunreal.com/oldunrealpatches.html

User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 16:07

Since he's mapping for EXU2, I think trying to introduce him to 227 is a fairly moot point :)

@FXANBSS

EXU2 is an Unreal Tournament project, and as such you cannot benefit from Unreal 227's improvements (UEd 2.1, etc.) if you choose to map for it. You'll have to stick with the crummy old UT editor.

If, however, you ever choose to create a map using "regular" Unreal gameplay, you should definitely switch over to Unreal 227, as UT Oldskool is a fairly outdated platform at this point, and U227 brings many improvements and nice things that make mapping easier and more fun.
UnrealSP.org webmaster & administrator

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User avatar ebd
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 18:06

Some of the tools could still be used by copy pasting back and forth between UnrealEd 2.1 and UnrealEd 2.0, but whether that is worth the effort I can't really say. I personally have enough troubles mapping with just UnrealEd 2.1 and I wouldn't want to make it more difficult.

bob
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 18:06

The version of EXU we have for unreal would probably be enought to be able to open and edit the maps in 227 tho ;)

User avatar Dr.Flay
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 19:29

Once you add the missing resources and make both games see each other, you can edit most UT maps in Unreal.
https://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5540

It has many advantages, but most extra mods and mutators often do not work.
It is only worth using UEd2.1 for the editing of the environment. Many of the tweaks and updates make it much more flexible and easier for editing.

Once you start adding certain EXU actors in UEd2 you will not be able to open it in UEd2.1
Using the Unreal version of EXU may indeed help, but only if all the classes are still the same.

I always check a UT map I have edited with UEd2.1, by opening and re-saving with UEd2.

User avatar FXANBSS
Skaarj Assassin Skaarj Assassin
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Subject: Re: Some mapping questions. I need help!

Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 20:38

Wow, that are tons of info, a real labyrinth.

About EXU2, there is not a Unreal version as i know. (I mean EXU2, not EXU!, these mods are not the same.)

I will look what i get after this.
Nothing to say. :D ;)

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