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[rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

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User avatar TheIronKnuckle
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 05:10

If this review makes it to the main page then yeah, link should come back.

I'm with Waff and Mister_Prophet. There are much better things we could be reviewing. The alien levels and Revelation, hard crash etc. They all deserve a solid review. Also, unless there has been a website or release thread or zip file with a readme or something else of that nature which indicates the authors consent, what we're doing here is just poor taste.

Seeing as we've got the ambiguous situation where the levels are floating around on a public server, we should resolve the ambiguity by at least attempting to contact this Zack bloke and ask if he's cool with a review. I suspect that after seeing this one he'd say "no". (Quality of his work aside, there are far too many digs at "The mapper")
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 08:47

bob wrote:it was intentionally released as far as i can tell ,not ripped from anywhere.
unless the uploader them self misunderstood, it was uploaded to a public "Maps Of The Week" section of a popular coop server's file section.(npg) on 26-Jan-2013 16:20


It's like downloading a mappack and playing it like any other.

TheIronKnuckle wrote:unless there has been a website or release thread or zip file with a readme or something else of that nature which indicates the authors consent, what we're doing here is just poor taste.


You mean what USP reviewers have, most of the time, done throughout the years? We can remove half of the posted reviews from the mainpage then.
I don't exactly care if the review ends up or not in the mainpage (even though I wish it does), but it will remain here in the forums and I will never change my opinion and especially my vote on the pack itself.
Last edited by UBerserker on 22 May 2013, 10:29, edited 3 times in total.
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User avatar Delacroix
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 10:14

If you're implying that we should seek the authors' consent prior to reviewing their creations, Knuckle, then I'm VERY happy it was Sana that stepped up when Hellscrag called it quits and not for example, you. We'd have A LOT LESS content and a LOT LESS chances for content! Take it into consideration that often we're reviewing blasts from the past where an author cannot be contacted any longer simply because the emails are all dead! Take it also into consideration that when searching for new maps to review we may as well encounter stuff like that, that deserve a lowest score. If we're supposed to not review packs weaker than, say, 5% total score, or 10% total score, why don't we pull the border to 20% score minimum? Or why don't we set this limit to 100% only and refuse to review any packs that don't deserve that much, or falsify their scores? Because once we begin to come up with IDIOTIC limitations in our work, someone else will come up and either sweettalk or bully us into imposing even more IDIOTIC limitations. So if someone here wishes to come up with excuses as to why not review a given SP/coop map or pack, I suggest publically: think before you goddamn type something because once we DO impose censorship and limitations, there's simply no turning back. It's a one-way down and a very slippery slope at that.

Granted, there are much better things we may be reviewing and multiple such reviews are being either planned or written as we speak. I myself am at the 7th map in the Csejte Castle coop map pack and so far I'm thrilled with what I'm playing through and I just know already that the score for this pack will be high. Very high. With all its flaws considered, such as lack of any kind of story, geometry bugs and occasional empty rooms, there is hope for a 70% or higher score. Multiple maps I have stashed right here on my PC well deserve over 50% from what I last remember when playing them so yes, I recognize the need to write quality reviews of quality maps. But that doesn't mean that UnrealSP will cover solely quality maps. Stuff such as Zack's maps deserves a review for several reasons: it is in the scope of our mission statement, it is a major release (30 maps!) and its quality and the history behind creating it (reused content from existing maps, including custom ones) means that unaware players might be in for a nasty surprise and therefore a well-deserved scathing review will serve as a warning. And, for the few people that are authentic masochists, a download link will be provided to give them an option to open themselves up for a whole new dimension of pain.

I think we should review indiscriminately. Most importantly because a comprehensive, complete review and download roster will turn UnrealSP into a testament of Unreal's greatness as a whole -- a clear showcase of UnrealEd's full scale of opportunities given to the user. Opportunities to create something grand -- or, on the other hand, to create... this. To step away from reviewing a pack solely because certain mappers may take offence or because the author may take offence is a grave mistake. And I hope to God that Sana does not step away from posting this review on the main site because of Waffnuffly's and Prophet's position on this. It would be a loss and a step back versus everything that has been done here so far.
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User avatar Jigoku
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 11:28

Maybe it should show up on the main page to show mappers what NOT to do when making maps. Sound good?
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 11:29

All this is missing the main problem, which isn't whether the pack is a train-wreck or not, but that a pack full of stolen content with no credit given (which is what tips it over to completely unacceptable for me) is apparently publicly available. If it's some sort of strange experiment that was never supposed to be made public then okay, but that needs to be clarified.
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User avatar Delacroix
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 12:35

From all the facts we've heard and the places the maps have been seen in/on, it seems it was supposed to be made public. At the very least, on coop servers - it's on more than one and none of them is hosted by this "Zack" individual. Due to the fact that the author neglected the need of making a readme and adding proper credit where due we cannot with all certainty say how much he did with good or bad will and what he did without being aware it's wrong. We can judge only the creation itself which is a horrible collection of unimaginably bastardized stock and custom maps. Had these pieces been grafted into something that looks and plays properly, I suppose the author would've been excused somewhat. But if one takes other people's stuff and mutilates it in such a way...
By the way, content isn't "stolen", it can be copied or plagiarized but theft makes original content disappear at all from its rightful place and it is not the case.

Also, I don't believe that Prophet's right about the reason of content being plagiarized is good for not writing a review for a map or pack. In fact, it's the OPPOSITE: since the pack is already available online in multiple places, people deserve to receive a fair warning about the case and a link to the pack in question to examine the maps themselves and see the evidence for themselves instead of relying on our opinions.
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User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Custom Map Review: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 22 May 2013, 13:45

I'm taking issue with multiple facts here. The first is that I find the review to be sorta distasteful; sure, the map may be really awful, but this is not really grounds for writing many, many sentences that ultimately boil down purely to "this shit is so bad I hate it so much". I have neither the time nor the desire to point out precise examples of what I'm talking about, but all in all, the text feels really spiteful and like the entire review is purely taking the piss out of the project for fun, which is not the kind of text I want to present officially on the main page, to be honest. Refer to Scrag's "The Tragedy" review which conveys a negative opinion of a crappy map, but remains civil and constructive throughout save for two very tame remarks.

The other would be that this is a map pack that has not been officially released for public consumption by the author. When TIK speaks about "authors consent" I take that this does not mean consent about specifically having his map reviewed on USP, but rather consent about his work being openly presented for public consumption, which is a stance I absolutely agree with. This sort of consent is expressed through readmes, webpage presentations and/or forum threads, none of which are present here. While I have not previously invested any thought into this issue, this thread has brought my attention to it and I've decided to add a new rule to reviews, stating that the reviewed content must be officially intended for public release by the author in some form, be it a forum thread, a website or a readme that unmistakably displays intent to show the content to the public in its existing form. And no, hosting the map on a public server or seeing it hosted by someone else on a cache-mined file database does NOT count as such, for reasons Waffnuffly has sufficiently outlined in this thread. It saddens me that neat content like Aquaducts won't be able to find its way to the main site because of this ruling, but that's a sacrifice that has to be made for the sake of the site's integrity and public appearance! (Although, if enough people agree, an exception could probably be made for that particular one.)

Based on these two points combined I'll have to decline hosting this review on the main site, but there's no problem with discussing this on the forums as an unofficial review not affiliated with USP! I also agree with the notion that the pack shouldn't be given the satisfaction of being downloaded if there's THIS much plagiarism from other mod authors. If it was on the main site, sure, needs a DL link, but like this... no real reason to.
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redeye
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 08 Jun 2013, 08:32

Aw dang, now I can't play this awesome thing,
Be worth it just to see that lighting.
Just ban everyone

redeye
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 07:26

:tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: "except something that I really find unacceptable like Unreality’s gameplay"
:tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:
no just no just because you don't have the patience and skill, it played perfectly fine and was fun. :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhhhhhh :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:


:tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :B
Just ban everyone

User avatar makemeunreal
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 17:15

He created something, and it's still better than doing nothing and speaking about fairness and so.
If someone display his pack as...'what you shouldn't do' the already small community loose another mapper.
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 17:22

redeye wrote::tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: "except something that I really find unacceptable like Unreality’s gameplay"
:tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:
no just no just because you don't have the patience and skill, it played perfectly fine and was fun. :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhhhhhh :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:


:tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :B



Maybe you forgot something
http://www.unrealsp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2147
So I know what I'm saying.
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User avatar makemeunreal
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 18:12

Also, what do we know about the author?
Do you know his e-mail?
"They let us go about our business here, but it is a farce. I know that they are watching us, controlling us. I believe that this once safe haven is as deadly as the surface planet below."

redeye
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 05:30

LoL, I just like to bug you, because you are still so WRONG .
I played unreality on normal, as I play every game so maybe thats the problem.
Just ban everyone

User avatar Delacroix
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 05:48

No, he's not wrong at all.

In fact, a pack should be balanced to play well on all 4 stock difficulty levels. Not just Normal. If it isn't, we have a problem.
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redeye
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Subject: Re: [rtnp] Forum-only Opinion: "Zack's Coop Maps" by Son of Wrath

Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 07:18

Oh no, another one. aaaaaaaaaaarg
Just ban everyone

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